RE: [N8VEM: 8229] Re: self contained home computer project ideas

["Dan Werner" <dwe...@dpcpipe.com>]

Ok, I finally gave up and ordered the 6802 from somewhere else.    If
anyone else is looking for them there is a guy on ebay with "more than
10" (pulls) for $7.50 plus $2.50 shipping.

Dan


-----Original Message-----
From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dan Werner
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:47 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8229] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

There is a kb queue, so I am not concerned about making that work, what
I am more concerned about is getting the ps/2 code to execute in the
time alloted in an I.s.r.

Dan

Andrew Lynch <lyn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Dan!  Thanks!  The SCG and N8VEM SBC support the TMS9918 /VINT signal
mapped over to the Z80 interrupt.  As I recall the TMS9918 generates an
interrupt at the end of every frame for approximately 60 Hz tick rate.  

 

Yes, I suspect the vast differences in keyboard methods are going to be
a problem.  The MSX keyboard appears to be a straight matrix style
keyboard while the PS/2 is essentially a serial port.  Hopefully there
is some common data structure like a FIFO that both keyboards approaches
can share to ease the transition.

 

Good gracious that 6802 is taking a long time to arrive.  I hope they
didn't lose it.  Maybe get a 6802 from Unicorn Electronics?  I swear I
recall seeing one in my junk pile ... someplace :-/

http://198.170.117.30/IC/6800.html

 

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

 

 

 

________________________________

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dan Werner
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:36 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8228] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

I am working on sound now.   Like the graphics, it is all handled
through BIOS calls, so I do not expect to have too much trouble making
it work.    I plan on using the VDU for KB input, as well as the 16550.
I am going to start with the serial port, get it all working, then move
to the PS/2 port.  After the Keyboard I will get the joysticks on the
SCG card working.

 

I suspect that the PS/2 interface will be the most challenging to get
right.    KB input on the MSX was handled by the 60hz screen refresh
interrupt routine that is triggered from the 9918, and  I suspect that
this will make it much more difficult to make it work correctly.  I have
already found one ROM that does not work correctly because it uses the
interrupt for raster graphics effects and the SCG card does not appear
to be quite the same timing as the MSX implementation.

 

I do not expect I will have a lot of time to work with it tonight or
tomorrow, but I expect to be back on it Wednesday, unless my 6802 shows
up, in which case I will be back on that.

 

Dan   

 

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew Lynch
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 6:48 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8224] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

Hi Dan!  Thanks!  That's fantastic!  Woo Hoo!  

 

Does the sound work?  Maybe this could be teamed up with the VDU and/or
PropIO for PS/2 keyboard input? 

 

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

 

 

 

________________________________

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dan Werner
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 11:05 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8220] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

This might actually work!!!

 

Attached is an image of an UNMODIFIED MSX ROM image, that appears to be
running just fine on the N8VEM with the MSX BIOS.    I am pretty sure if
I had the keyboard or joystick implemented in the BIOS that it would be
100% playable!   The attract mode of this game on the N8VEM matches 100%
what I am seeing on the MSX emulator I have running on my PC. 

 

It looks like it should be possible in the near future to run MSX ROM
images that are less than 32K on the N8VEM & SCG, and with an ECB
cartridge reader, perhaps all MSX images.

 

Once I get the keyboard working, I will put together a ROM image and
upload it to the WIKI.   I do not have all of the details worked out
yet, but, I am guessing the first revision will be a ROM that boots the
computer and waits for an Intel formatted hex file to be uploaded to it,
and then runs that image as a cartridge.   I can also see a version that
is a CP/M .COM file that loads the BIOS into the TPA, then relocates it
and boots up, running any image that was included in the .COM file with
the BIOS.

 

Lots of possibilities!

 

Dan Werner

 

 

 

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dan Werner
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:23 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8219] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

The easiest thing is to use latches to read the cartridge.  As far as I
can tell the MSX uses a rather complex banking scheme that banks various
ranges in and out of main memory and then copies the contents before
executing.   The spec appears to support 1 or more "slots" that the BIOS
can select.   It appears to be handled mostly by the bios, and so (in
theory) we could use latches and still have a reasonable level of
compatibility.    I am still very early into this, and I cannot say that
I 100% understand how it all works yet, so this could be totally wrong!
Bottom line is that I am guessing that any ROM we use may have to be
patched anyway, so there is really no reason to maintain 100% cartridge
compatibility.

 

I will let you know what I find as I dig deeper.    I downloaded a game
ROM and am currently attempting to see how much of it I can get to
execute without patching the ROM.   So far, it starts up, and is
crashing in the Video init.

 

Dan

 

 

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew Lynch
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:02 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8217] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

Hi Dan!  Thanks!  Great news!  However, that begs an interesting
question.  Should we allow for a mechanism to read MSX cartridges, and
by extension, external bus memory from the ECB?  

 

As with everything, this is not a simple change.  The current
implementation of the ECB bus interface logic allows bus memory writes
but not bus memory reads.  It allows IO reads and writes outside of the
internal IO range.  No bus IO reads or writes are allowed within the
internal IO range.  Also, there is no memory "hole" for external bus
memory reads to take place since the onboard memory (1MB either ROM/RAM
or RAM/RAM) completely cover the entire addressable range.

 

There is simply no way to accommodate an MSX ROM cartridge interface on
the PCB itself because it is completely packed.  The only practical
option IMO is an ECB cartridge reader board.  The initial trace routing
started at 624 vias and 1604 inches overall trace length.  That is a
record for PCB complexity on any of the N8VEM boards and the prototype
will be in trace routing for weeks if not months.  However we could make
a board to allow MSX ROM cartridge reads were the ECB bus interface
logic changed *AND* there is some mechanism to allow the external bus
memory to override the internal memory.  If it is all or nothing
internal vs external then the implementation is fairly simple.  However,
if it is a complicated mix of internal and external memory then it gets
very complicated.  For example, use the latch to lock out the internal
Flash ROM and Low SRAM, keeping the only the external ROM memory and the
High SRAM in memory context to the CPU.

 

Do you know how the MSX ROM cartridge mechanism works?  Where are the
memory ranges, options, etc?  I wonder if it is possible to implement
such a feature using a spare latch pin to disable onboard memory and
read from the bus instead.  The conversion to the bus interface logic
would be fairly simple.  Just stop checking for internal vs external
memory and leave it up to builder to ensure there is no overlap.  If
there is overlap we will get bus contention and almost certainly a CPU
crash if not part damage as the SRAMs and/or Flash ROMs duke it out with
the bus transceivers.

 

An alternate idea is to use IO ports with latches to just copy the
contents of the ROM external memory into internal memory and execute it
from there.  That would require no changes at all to the existing bus
interface logic.  Please consider and let me know your thoughts.  I
don't think there is a compelling reason to absolutely have MSX ROM
cartridge compatibility since this machine is not explicitly designed as
an MSX computer and also the cartridges are fairly rare these days.  I
am curious to hear what the builders are thinking.


Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

 

________________________________

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dan Werner
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 4:42 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8215] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

Not sure yet, It looks like most MSX programs use the BIOS calls for
input and output, so, it is possible that not a lot will need to be done
for some measure of compatibility.   I am trying out a MSX cartridge ROM
right now.    I do not have any of the sound or KB/Joystick stuff ported
yet, but, if I can get some form of graphics on the screen with just the
BIOS (no changes to the ROM), then I think we have a good shot.   

 

Dan

 

 

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew Lynch
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 3:32 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8214] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

Hi Dan!  Thanks!  Wow!  That's cool!  Glad to hear of development on MSX
for SCG board!

 

I think the new home computer will be at least potentially MSX BIOS
compatible.  If there are any hardware features I can adjust to help
with compatibility please let me know.  I looked over the MSX hand book
and there are many areas of differences with MSX.  There is a lot in
common like TMS9918 and AY-3-8910 but we're missing the keyboard matrix,
etc.  Also the IO ports are all in completely different addresses.  

 

What can be done to make things easier?


Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

 

________________________________

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dan Werner
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 3:53 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8213] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

I am making some progress on the MSX BIOS for the N8VEM with the SCG
card.   Hopefully I will have something to upload soon.    I have
attached the C-BIOS (MSX open source BIOS) splash screen as it is
displaying on the SCG.   Hopefully once the BIOS is stable, we may have
some luck patching a few of the MSX games, or perhaps even the BASIC to
run.

 

Dan Werner

 

 

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Dan Werner
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 12:27 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8180] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

I would not worry too much about breaking the written software.   As far
as I can tell, integrating in the MSX bios compatibility will break
things worse!

 

Dan

 

 

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew Lynch
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 12:21 PM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8179] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

Hi James!  Well, sort of.  The P112 uses a Z8S182 which is kind of like
a Z8S180 but has a lot more integrated functions.  It is a different
creature but related.

 

The good news is I think that after a bit of clean up the schematic and
PCB layout are starting to come together.  I am going against my
original intent and rearranging the chip selects, etc.  Unfortunately
that is going to break much of the already written software but should
be only adjustments not total losses.

 

I did some more clean up and posted new schematic and PCB layout files
on the N8VEM wiki.

 

Also there is a Byte magazine article with the SB-180 schematic in it on
Google Books but it is useless as it is unreadable and also uses an
HD64180.  That's another close relative but not the same chip.

 

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

 

________________________________

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of James Moxham
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 8:32 AM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 8175] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

Hi Andrew,

I was looking at your list below, and came across the P112 schematics
http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/p112/p112.html

Does this help with those mystery pins?

Cheers, James

On 28/10/2010 5:13 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: 

Hi!  There are a few projects using Z8S180 like CPUs on the internet for
inspiration.  None actually use the Z8S180 as far as I know but they are
close.  

 

There is not a whole lot of material available especially compared to
the classic Z80 CPU computer projects.  Here are a few I've seen: 

1.	SB-180 (Steve Ciarcia of Byte magazine/Circuit Cellar fame) uses
HD64180, 
2.	MICROPAC 180 (Z180 based, appears commercial although schematics
available on search), 
3.	P112, 
4.	C'T Projekt C'T-180 (February 1986).

 

If anyone would like the Z8S180, I'll need updates to the schematic.
Actually, it may be easier to just use the HD64180 since there is a lot
more material for it rather than the Z8S180.  I don't know about parts
availability though.

 

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

 

 

________________________________

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew Lynch
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 9:28 AM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [N8VEM: 8148] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

Hi Max!  Thanks!  I've reworked the design and uploaded a new schematic
and PCB layout.  The space constraints are pretty tight.  You would
think with 60 square inches of PCB space there would be plenty of room
but there is not much room.  It is a bit of surprise that the prototype
board size is actually a major constraint.

 

The main culprit is using actual connectors like DB25 female for printer
and DE9 male (3) for serial and two joystick ports.  Keyboard, mouse,
video, parallel expansion, SD, and ECB connectors mean two and a half
sides are completely full with connectors.  The real connectors are use
much more PCB space than the dual row header pins.

 

The current design is:

SBC V2 (CPU, RAM/ROM, serial, parallel, RTC)

SCG (video, sound, joysticks)

parallel printer/keyboard/mouse (from VDU)

timer (Juha circuit)

Juha SD 

 

The good news is the schematic has come together and passes ERC.  Also,
all the design features reuse existing elements of hardware and software
with little or no modification.  The PCB layout is cramped but trace
routing solves without manual intervention and also passes DRC.  The
downside is I had to use the most aggressive design rules to make it
solve.

 

We can make changes to the design but they have to be space neutral as
the board is full.  That makes it a real challenge!  In particular, I
know the builders would like to see a Z8S180 CPU.  I'd like to see one
too but after working with it I find it is very different than Z80 and I
don't have experience with it.  There are several new signals to
accommodate and other factors to work on.  I am not sure what to do with
them and it makes for a risky prototype.

 

The main problem with the Z8S180 is there does not seem to be a
reference design for the Z8S180 in the documentation so it is difficult
to use.  Actually there is a simple reference design in the application
note but it exports most of the pins to a header and uses a PAL/GAL to
for IO decoding.  I would like to see a Z8S180 however my focus is on IO
not CPU.  If you or others have detailed changes for the schematic we
can certainly try to incorporate it.

 

I do not think adding more serial ports, IDE, or floppy drive is
feasible due to PCB space restrictions.  Also, I don't want to use an
XMOS or Propeller for integrated IO since it would require another
extended design cycle like PropIO.  Microcontrollers for IO are fine for
experimental boards but not for a basic system.  I'd like to leverage
existing designs as much as possible to keep this practical.

 

There are new schematic and PCB layout files on the N8VEM wiki if you
would like to take a look.  Please let me know what you think.  Consider
this a starting point to capture the ideas not the final design.

 

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

 

________________________________

From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Max Scane
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 2:45 AM
To: n8...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 8144] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas

 

I see your problem..  Even going back to the Z80 makes it one packed
board.

Regards,

Max

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Andrew Lynch <lyn...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Hi James!  Thanks!  I've found that the prototype board manufacturer has
a
limitation of 60 square inches not the 100 square inches I was assuming
in
the prototype.  The current design has already filled the board and it
still
does not have the video which is essential to a home computer.

As the project evolves I've been thinking more about design goals and
what
are priorities.  The computer should give some immediate feedback on
power
up to display video and interact with the keyboard so that is important.
In
terms of priority, the IO is paramount as there are many CPU choices we
can
use.

The current design is going to be scaled back significantly to fit in
the
prototype PCB constraints.  My plan is to start over on this and try the
SBC
V2 + SCG + keyboard + timer + SD approach and see if that will fit.  We
can
convert the design to Z8S180 at a later stage.


Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

> -----Original Message-----
> From: n8...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of

> James Moxham
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 3:14 AM
> To: n8...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 8129] Re: self contained home computer project
ideas
>
> This is so exciting! I see on another post that this chip goes to
33Mhz.
> That is going to be quite amazing. Will it require different 'glue'
> chips to HC or HCT?
>
> Cheers, James
>
> On 26/10/2010 9:57 AM, lynchaj wrote:
> > Hi Max!  Thanks!  I updated the schematic and added an initial PCB
> > layout.  The board is incomplete but still enormous.  I started with
a
> > 10"x10" board assuming absolute worst case it could not be that
> > large.  I still need to add the FDC section, video, and audio and it
> > is about 60% full.  There are several pins on the CPU that are NC
> > because I am not sure what to do with them.
> >
> > Please take a look and send me any notes.  The schematic does not
pass
> > ERC yet with 15 warnings which are mostly disconnected pins.  I
> > started with two PIOs but changed to 2 PPIs (8255s) to support
> > printer, keyboard, and mouse ports and the parallel utility port
from
> > the SBC V2.  There is still one PIO for the SD interface with some
> > spare pins left over.
> >
> > Thanks and have a nice day!
> >
> > Andrew Lynch
> >
> > On Oct 24, 10:09 pm, Max Scane<mjs...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> Hi Andrew,
> >>
> >> That is a really good start.
> >>
> >> the TXS,RXS and CKS are used for the Clocked Serial port which
could be
> used
> >> for a High Speed serial link.  Trouble is it is only Half Duplex.
I
> wonder
> >> if it could be used to drive the SPI on the SD Card?   I would just
> >> terminate it on headers for now.
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >>
> >> Max
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:37 PM, lynchaj<lyn...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> >>> Hi John!  Thanks!  OK, I think the Z8S180 is the way to go.  I
started
> >>> a schematic just to jot down some ideas.  There are many areas I
am
> >>> not familiar with so I'll need some help from you and Max and
whoever
> >>> else is interested in designing this project.
> >>> I started with the SBC V2 and made modifications.  I've placed a
> >>> schematic draft in the new "home computer" folder on the N8VEM
wiki
> >>> http://n8vem-
> sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=Home%20C...
> >>> What I have so far is a Z8S180 CPU and some basic parts.  The
> >>> schematic part has to be updated since it is a Z180 in DIP format.
I
> >>> will convert it to the PLCC format and update the pin numbers.
There
> >>> are many pins I do not know what to do with.  Any suggestions
> >>> appreciated.
> >>> There is a 512KB Flash ROM (29F040) and two 512KB SRAMs.  The
system
> >>> defaults after reset to ROM in 0-512 and can be swapped out for a
SRAM
> >>> based on a /ROM_ENABLE configuration latch.  The upper 512KB is
always
> >>> SRAM.
> >>> I removed the 8255 parallel port chip.  In its place I am using
two
> >>> PIOs.  The first is dedicated to a printer port and the second
> >>> supports the PS/2 keyboard, mouse, and SD.  There are 4 spare pins
> >>> still.
> >>> The 16C550 serial port is gone.  It is replaced with the Z8S180
built
> >>> in dual serial ports.  The first one is straight forward.  The
second
> >>> is a partial implementation.  Also there is a high speed
synchronous
> >>> clock in, out, and receive.  I have no idea what to do with that.
I
> >>> definitely need some help with the serial ports.
> >>> I added the IDE port with the improvements to make sure /DIOR and
/
> >>> DIOW are gated to the chip selects.  That dramatically improves
> >>> compatibility with drives such as WD, etc.
> >>> The memory page configuration latches are gone.  There is a major
> >>> update to the memory decoding logic and I am pretty sure it needs
a
> >>> rework.  There are now four levels of logic to get to a RAM chip
> >>> select so it will have to be fixed.
> >>> I am keeping the ECB bus interface logic and
buffering/transceivers
> >>> are basically the same.  Also the status LED is the same.
> >>> Don't take this schematic too seriously; it mostly me scratching
down
> >>> notes before I forget them.  Once we get the basic logic and
> >>> infrastructure in place we can add in the video and audio from the
> >>> SCG.  I am also holding off on the floppy drive controller for the
> >>> same reason.
> >>> Thanks and have a nice day!
> >>> Andrew Lynch
> >>> On Oct 24, 11:15 am, John Coffman<john...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>>> Of the Z180 chips out there, I would lean toward the Z8S180.  It
> looks
> >>> like the most recent mask.  It looks like a nice challenge to make
> best use
> >>> of the Z180 memory mapping scheme.
> >>>> The Z8S180 DMA controller is very similar to the 80186/8 DMA
> controller;
> >>> so I think we are getting to know the plusses and minuses of the
> WD37C65
> >>> chip.  If I were doing a [floppy] DiskI/O board v2, I would use
the
> chip,
> >>> but with an 8237, the DMA controller to which it is a better
match.
> One
> >>> item that cannot be tested on the SBC-188 is whether the chip can
be
> used
> >>> with external floppy motor control, like the DiskI/O board, and
> thereby
> >>> avoid the pitfalls of a non-8237 DMA controller.
> >>>> --John
> >>>> On 10/23/2010 05:49 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
> >>> --
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