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SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4810] Thu, 28 June 2018 08:12 Go to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
Messages: 28
Registered: May 2018
Location: Netherlands
Junior Member
Hello,

Some time ago I bought some K6R4008V18 Ram chips, 10Ns access 512Kx8.
They have a SOJ36 package.
And the Multicomp board needs a Dip32 footprint. Sad
Where can I buy 4 of these PCB's at a reasonable price?
I've tried E-Bay, but no luck.
And there was mention of a site in this forum (90Mhz 6809) but that site seems to be gone.

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4811 is a reply to message #4810] Thu, 28 June 2018 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
Senior Member
What do you need?
Multicomp boards (Cyclone II or IV)
or converter boards?

I can help you with the first, not the second
(see https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=builderpages: rhkoolstar:startWink

and the 6809 thread is here: https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/forum/index.php?t=msg& ;goto=1260&&srch=cyclone#msg_1260

Rienk

[Updated on: Thu, 28 June 2018 09:09]

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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4814 is a reply to message #4811] Thu, 28 June 2018 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
Messages: 28
Registered: May 2018
Location: Netherlands
Junior Member
Hello Rienk,

Thanks for the pointers.
I do need converter boards, I've got the Ram-chips and a working Multicomp/Cyclone.
I can also confirm that Windows 8 and Win32DiskImager can be used to get an image (From this site) on the SD-Card.

One thing I've not understood yet is what I have to do to the Cyclone programm to get it to work at higher speed.

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4815 is a reply to message #4814] Thu, 28 June 2018 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
Senior Member
You can design the converter boards yourself. Then send the gerbers to one of the usual manufacturers (I prefer seeed)
You'll get about 40-80 boards (I expect some 10 to fit on a 100x100 mm board) for about $15, shipping included.
(or only 5 if you order exact size, no cutting needed)

You increase the clock speed by utilizing a built-in PLL. Look at the Cyclone IV designs by Max Scane for the code

Rienk
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4816 is a reply to message #4815] Thu, 28 June 2018 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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Just to help you out:
index.php?t=getfile&id=954&private=0

Send the included.zip file to a manufacturer. The board dimensions are 100x90 mm.
Order 5 thin (0.6 - 0.8 mm) boards and wait a few weeks

40 converters for 15 bucks.

You can mess up half with bad cutting with no problem.

Rienk
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4823 is a reply to message #4816] Fri, 29 June 2018 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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Can't leave well enough alone I guess...

Narrowed the design, so everything fits inside the DIP footprint
Widened the power traces
added a decoupling cap
included Gerbers for 10 parts (100x90 board)
included Gerbers for 1 part (41.5x18.6 board)
included schematics

I just checked: 10 single boards 0.8mm (42x19mm) cost $14.41 including shipping using EU post
https://www.seeedstudio.com/fusion_pcb.html


index.php?t=getfile&id=957&private=0

Have fun, Rienk

[Updated on: Fri, 29 June 2018 02:35]

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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4825 is a reply to message #4823] Fri, 29 June 2018 09:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Hello Rienk,
Thanks for the design and files.
I've ordered a batch today.

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4826 is a reply to message #4810] Fri, 29 June 2018 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nealcrook is currently offline  nealcrook
Messages: 120
Registered: October 2015
Location: UK
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>> 40 converters for 15 bucks.

..and probably sell some excess boards here!

I shared the purchase of some of these type of boards with another hobbyist (not Rienk's design..Wink, but they came from the US and the ended up costing quite a lot, including an unpleasant and unexpected import duty charge.

Neal.

[Updated on: Fri, 29 June 2018 16:04]

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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4828 is a reply to message #4826] Sat, 30 June 2018 00:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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Maybe it is a good idea to make a board with several different converters on it. PLCC socket to DIP comes to mind. Any ideas? I have no clue what is needed out there.

100 DIP32 sized converters would cost 20 bucks (20 cents each) which should be quite enough for local distribution. Again, the postage is the major cost factor.

Rienk
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4832 is a reply to message #4828] Sat, 30 June 2018 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Registered: May 2018
Location: Netherlands
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Hello Rienk and Neal,

Of course I can sell excess boards if someone is intrested.
I'm in the Netherlands. (And that's Europe Razz Wink

Other boards?
I would like some SOP8 / 14 / 16 / 20 to Dil boards that can be plugged into a Dip socket.
The ones I currently have, won't.
And I have various SMD packaged TTL chips that would be nice to use in a "conventional" board.

And a Din41612 connector backboard. (A/C Rows would suffice)
This would be nice for some of my "Elektor-bus" based cards.

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4833 is a reply to message #4832] Sat, 30 June 2018 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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See what I can do... Don't hold your breath, though

the SOP20 chips might be a problem. They are wider than their DIP equivalent.

Rienk

Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4837 is a reply to message #4833] Sun, 01 July 2018 01:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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Good news and bad news

Good news: It can be done.

Bad news: Soldering these will not be easy.

- most of the SIOC pads are moved inward 0.3 mm leaving you zero clearance fitting the chip.
- the inner DIP pads are only 1.15 mm diameter. They will have a 0.65 mm hole so you will need 'turned' brass header strips (see picture). They are a pain because they are quite fragile.
- The boards are 'out of spec': the minimum clearance rule is not met. The solder masks overlap, so bridges have to be avoided.

index.php?t=getfile&id=963&private=0

index.php?t=getfile&id=964&private=0

Rienk
  • Attachment: soic-dip16.png
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  • Attachment: s-l1600.jpg
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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4838 is a reply to message #4837] Sun, 01 July 2018 02:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pbirkel is currently offline  pbirkel
Messages: 61
Registered: October 2015
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I've never designed something like this it but seems to me that perhaps using two PCBs where the lower one handles the DIP pins with lead-pads/traces extended towards the centerline, and then the upper one handles the SOIC which has lead-pads/traces that also extend toward the centerline, and then the two PCBs have aligned thru-holes in a dual array near the centerline might work. Assembly starts by soldering up the lower PCB with the DIP pins and stub-wires-near-centerline, then threading the stub-wires through the upper PCB and soldering, then lastly soldering the SOIC. A piece of Kapton tape might be placed between the two PCBs but I don't see any need for that since those two faces would only need to have the vias in them.

The entire package would be an extra FR4 tall plus any accommodation for the feed-thru stubs under the SOIC. With careful trimming of those wires *before* assembly there would need to be any protrusion above the under PCB surface. That would just leave the DIP-pin protrusion into the inter-PCB space to minimize.

Reasonable? It would double the cost of the PCBs-per-SOIC but as noted earlier that's pretty low. And regular DIP-pins could then be used.
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4839 is a reply to message #4838] Sun, 01 July 2018 04:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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I think that would over-complicate matters way too much. Those pins are not too expensive, some 40 cents for a strip of 40.
Your solution might work better if you mount the SOIC chips vertically, but you would still be up for some finicky soldering. Also it would get bulky really fast.

Anyway, here is a board with 16xDIP16, 16xDIP14 and 8xDIP8 on a 100x100 PCB
You really need a good way of cutting these, I use a Proxxon table saw with a 0.5 mm wide carbide blade. Well worth the money in my opinion. (the standard blade is useless for cutting fiberglass resin boards)

An alternative way of soldering in the chips might be to turn the SOIC pins into SOJ pins, i.e bend them under the chip. I have done that once with a SRAM chip and it works quite well. Just roll the chip over a hard flat surface.

index.php?t=getfile&id=965&private=0
  • Attachment: SOIC2DIP.png
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  • Attachment: SOIC2DIP.zip
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[Updated on: Sun, 01 July 2018 04:30]

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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4840 is a reply to message #4839] Sun, 01 July 2018 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Hello Rienk,

Thanks for giving this some thought and making a start.
The pins are also the ones I had in mind.
However, I think the PCB's can be improved upon. How?...
Take the 14 pin unit for example. Move the IC in the direction of pin 7 and 8.
Make no holes for pins 3,4,5,6 and 9,10,11,12. Just make solder pads on the bottom of the pcb.
Do make holes for pins 1,2,7,8,13,14.
For assembly, take a piece of 7 pins. Cut the pins that have no hole in the PCB. The ones with the hole will provide mechanical srength.
All that has to be done now is solder the pins on the bottom side of the PCB.
I hope this makes sense, it may be difficult to explain I think......

Another "trick" would be to bend the pins of the SMD-chip. Make them to give a side view of an Omega shape.
The Pads can be moved closer together and the IC may be solderd just the same.
I've done this once, to fit a SOP28 Sram SMD below the socket of an Eprom. For a Ram, it's no problem to intermix address lines or data lines.
e.g. D0 can be connected to D3 or A0 to A12. The Ram will work just the same.

BR/
Guus

P.S. Just because a component is called "Trough hole" doesn't mean it -HAS- to be used that way.

[Updated on: Sun, 01 July 2018 10:48]

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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4841 is a reply to message #4840] Sun, 01 July 2018 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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Like so...

index.php?t=getfile&id=968&private=0

I put vias in the pads to give them some 'troughole strength'
Also if you don't 'tent' the vias you can solder from the top

Rienk
  • Attachment: SOIC2DIP.png
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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4842 is a reply to message #4841] Sun, 01 July 2018 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Registered: May 2018
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Hello Rienk,

Yes, thats the idea.
Looks like this would work very well.

One more thing.
After panelising, is it feasable to put Via's in the space between the PCB's?
This would create a braking line.....

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4844 is a reply to message #4842] Mon, 02 July 2018 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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OK

Board size is 98x90mm

Enjoy
index.php?t=getfile&id=977&private=0
  • Attachment: SOIC2DIP.png
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  • Attachment: SOIC2DIP.zip
    (Size: 56.96KB, Downloaded 77 times)

[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2018 01:23]

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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4845 is a reply to message #4810] Mon, 02 July 2018 02:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Registered: May 2018
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Hello Rienk,

Just now I've placed an order for boards.
Now all I need to do is wait....
I'll make an update of this tread once the boards have arrived.

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4849 is a reply to message #4845] Tue, 03 July 2018 08:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Registered: May 2018
Location: Netherlands
Junior Member
Hello Rienk,

Today I got a mail from Seeed. Please see attached.
I don't want to pay an extra $24. Making 3 seperate panels would be cheaper.
But also, a colomn of 5 PCB's could be 1 design. And that can be repeated horizontally to form the panel. Cool
Or maybe they don't like the large amount of holes? Laughing

Any suggestions?
Or should I just try to cancel the order and take it somewhere else?

BR/
Guus

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2018 08:11]

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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4850 is a reply to message #4849] Tue, 03 July 2018 08:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nealcrook is currently offline  nealcrook
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Boo hiss etc. I read a similar "small print" at dirtypcbs.
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4851 is a reply to message #4850] Tue, 03 July 2018 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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Don't panic,

I noticed that the outline of the last via crossed the right edge-cut (outline), dividing it in 5 pieces. This makes the seeed robot see 5 designs.
(panels are detected by extra outlines)

I deleted the 4 offending vias and made a new set of gerbers

cancel order (or maybe modify it ?Wink and try the new set

Rienk
  • Attachment: SOIC2DIP.zip
    (Size: 56.89KB, Downloaded 75 times)

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2018 08:45]

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Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4853 is a reply to message #4851] Tue, 03 July 2018 09:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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You can also use this one. It has all the vias, but I reduced the island size of the edge (left and right) ones.

If I am not mistaken you can upload a new version when an order is pending.

Rienk
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4861 is a reply to message #4853] Thu, 05 July 2018 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Hello Rienk,

The new version SIOC2DIP2 has also been rejected for the same reason.
Is there some way to change the design, make some different combination? Or should I just cancel and request a refund.
Maybe another manufacturer has no problems with the design.

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4862 is a reply to message #4861] Thu, 05 July 2018 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew B is currently offline  Andrew B
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Registered: October 2015
Location: Hawthorne, CA
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I think Dirty PCBs will allow panalized designs as long as they are connected by 'mouse ears' not not by a ton of via holes.

See an example here: http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6745 and their site which states "Panelized designs are OK for 2 layer boards only, but the boards must be connected by tabs (mouse bites and slots) that snap apart later! Separate, non-connected boards will be refused by the board house!"

I have seen reference to a 'holes per square inch' metric that some of these board houses use, so it's possible that the strategy of using lots of holes to separate these small boards is flagging this design with Seed's software. Having larger cut-outs with 'mouse ears' with a few holes in the mouse-ear area to help snap those later might be a better plan.

Or just don't put any holes there at all, and have them made out of really thin PCB material, and cut them with some snips....
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4863 is a reply to message #4862] Thu, 05 July 2018 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Registered: October 2015
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It is just holes too close to the edge.

Probably the left hand side too.

This one WILL work, I'm sure, I hope you are not in a hurry...

Sorry for the trouble

Rienk
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4864 is a reply to message #4863] Thu, 05 July 2018 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Hi Andrew.
The instructions read:
Quote:
If you want us to treat the whole board as one design, do not separate the boards in the outline
layer (silkscreen lines are ok). You will have to separate the boards by yourself.

The outline layer is the edge-cuts layer.

Holes too close to the edge-cut line make for an interrupted 'outline layer' hence different panels.

Clearly if the 'perforation' was the issue, it would also separate the verticals

Rienk
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4887 is a reply to message #4864] Tue, 10 July 2018 09:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Hello Rienk,

Unfortunatelly, still the same. Seeed keeps refusing the design and claims that it's 3 designs.
And they want an extra $24 for making this.
It's a redicilous price, I could have many more boards for this price.
I think they don't want to make this board. The numbers they've written look as if they've been done by hand.
Any solution or should I just ask for a refund?

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4889 is a reply to message #4887] Tue, 10 July 2018 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Perhaps they dislike the break lines (I kind of understand that Smile. The board should comply with their rules for being a single design.

I myself would omit all those holes and cut them the 'traditional' way.
I have ordered such boards (more than one 'design' per board) in the past without issues.

I can make an ultimate effort by making a vertical design on the right hand part crossing all boards, like this

Now they might 'see' two designs vertically

want to give it a try?

Rienk

  • Attachment: SOIC2DIP.png
    (Size: 47.73KB, Downloaded 122 times)
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4895 is a reply to message #4889] Wed, 11 July 2018 02:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Registered: October 2015
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Or you can try something like this. Here te vias are an actual net (GND) and I flood-filled the GND net
  • Attachment: SOIC2DIP.png
    (Size: 101.57KB, Downloaded 121 times)
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4896 is a reply to message #4895] Wed, 11 July 2018 05:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Hello Rienk,

The latest one is OK I think.
Can you please post the files / Zip that I can upload?

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4898 is a reply to message #4896] Wed, 11 July 2018 09:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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No Problem
  • Attachment: SOIC2DIP4.zip
    (Size: 160.93KB, Downloaded 80 times)
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4900 is a reply to message #4898] Wed, 11 July 2018 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Thanks,
Have uploaded it again to Seeed.
Hope they accept it finally.
If not, only a version without the "perforation" might do...
Anyway, I keep my fingers crossed.

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4911 is a reply to message #4900] Fri, 13 July 2018 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Hello Rienk,

Got a mail today, the boards are finally being processed. Cool
I'll keep you posted on the arrival.
BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4912 is a reply to message #4911] Fri, 13 July 2018 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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The fourth time is a charm....

(that three times thing is just wishful thinking)

Rienk
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4932 is a reply to message #4912] Wed, 18 July 2018 16:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trick-1 is currently offline  trick-1
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would be good to get those boards loaded into the "boards | other" section for future reference. Gets hard to find things down the track.
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4936 is a reply to message #4932] Thu, 19 July 2018 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Registered: May 2018
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Junior Member
Hello,
The SOJ to DIP boards have arrived today. I cut one board and soldered 2 rams on.
It's really difficult, using just a soldering iron, but I managed.
Then I found out that the Ram was mounted the wrong way. Embarrassed Mad
I managed to remove the Ram's with a hot air soldering iron and one is working now.
The second one will need some more attention.

B.T.W. I have no objections against moving this thread...

BR/
Guus
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4937 is a reply to message #4936] Thu, 19 July 2018 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
Messages: 256
Registered: October 2015
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When hand soldering SMD parts, make sure all your parts are clean. I use 2000 grit sandpaper to remove tarnish from older parts.
Then use really fine solder wire. I use 0.35 mm rosin core solder. I also use extra flux.

With some practice you'll get better at it in no time.

btw Richard means to include the boards in the wiki. Here: https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:other: start

I will do that once they are confirmed to work. Smile


Rienk

[Updated on: Thu, 19 July 2018 14:00]

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SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4938 is a reply to message #4810] Fri, 20 July 2018 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Registered: May 2018
Location: Netherlands
Junior Member
Hello Rienk,

The SOJ36 to Dip converters do work. Smile
I've fixed the 2nd one as well.

The difficulty in soldering is that the solder pads cannot be reached with the tip of the iron.
So I added a lot of liquid flux and dragged a big drop of moulten solder past all pins.
A combination of Flux and the properties of the solder (Surface tension etc) allow for a good soldering.
I've had quite some expreience with soldering and that's needed. Cool
Yet, it's entirely doable and the most important thing is patience and of course a keen eye.

BR/
Guus.

P.S. The other boards are on the way. SEEED reported having shipped them.
Re: SOJ36 to dip32 converter PCB [message #4939 is a reply to message #4938] Sat, 21 July 2018 05:13 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
guus.assmann is currently offline  guus.assmann
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Registered: May 2018
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Junior Member
Hello all,
Here's pictures of the PCB with IC's on it.
I've assembled 6 so far and all work fine.
There's also a socket and IC in the picture.
This is to show that a socket will fit over the IC, so Piggy-Back is easy.

Thanks for the great help.

BR/
Guus
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