Home » RBC Forums » General Discussion » MSX2 Compatible Computer Project
Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7539 is a reply to message #7538] |
Wed, 15 April 2020 23:06   |
jordi.solis
Messages: 119 Registered: March 2017
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bifo wrote on Thu, 16 April 2020 05:36
That's great news, thanks. My Sunrise CF adapter finally arrived and doesn't fit the slot in my old MSX2, so I'm kind of at a loss on how to move forward. I'll hopefully finish the Omega by the end of this month and can experiment with that. Either that, or remove the front of my old MSX2. The slot would fit the cartridge fine, but the design of the Sunrise is frustratingly off-center.
Hello,
I guess you know, but be careful not to insert the cartridge on the opposite (reverse) side. It is strange that it does not enter your MSX slot as you say.
On this page it says how to format the compact flash drive considering that you have a floppy drive.
https://www.msx.org/wiki/Sunrise_Compact_Flash_Card_Interface
If not, below, describe how this can also be done by formatting in FAT16 <32M. I think Windows 7 would do well by formatting a 30Mb partition on FAT16 (for example), but you can also change the partition type using a GNU-Linux computer.
I'm not sure but maybe the CALL FORMAT command is integrated in the NEXTOR BIOS and in that case you could run it from BASIC.
More information in:
https:// www.konamiman.com/msx/nextor/docs/Nextor%202.0%20Getting%20S tarted%20Guide.pdf
Here it mentions to use a Nextor kernel with Sunrise IDE driver.
It also describes how to install it with an emulator, I think you can also install Nextor in the emulator and then simply dump the disk image onto the compact flash card (with some specific software for it).
I hope this helps
MSXmakers
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7540 is a reply to message #7539] |
Thu, 16 April 2020 03:26   |
bifo
Messages: 48 Registered: October 2019
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jordi.solis wrote on Wed, 15 April 2020 23:06bifo wrote on Thu, 16 April 2020 05:36
That's great news, thanks. My Sunrise CF adapter finally arrived and doesn't fit the slot in my old MSX2, so I'm kind of at a loss on how to move forward. I'll hopefully finish the Omega by the end of this month and can experiment with that. Either that, or remove the front of my old MSX2. The slot would fit the cartridge fine, but the design of the Sunrise is frustratingly off-center.
Hello,
I guess you know, but be careful not to insert the cartridge on the opposite (reverse) side. It is strange that it does not enter your MSX slot as you say.
On this page it says how to format the compact flash drive considering that you have a floppy drive.
https://www.msx.org/wiki/Sunrise_Compact_Flash_Card_Interfac e
If not, below, describe how this can also be done by formatting in FAT16 <32M. I think Windows 7 would do well by formatting a 30Mb partition on FAT16 (for example), but you can also change the partition type using a GNU-Linux computer.
I'm not sure but maybe the CALL FORMAT command is integrated in the NEXTOR BIOS and in that case you could run it from BASIC.
More information in:
https:// www.konamiman.com/msx/nextor/docs/Nextor%202.0%20Getting%20S tarted%20Guide.pdf
Here it mentions to use a Nextor kernel with Sunrise IDE driver.
It also describes how to install it with an emulator, I think you can also install Nextor in the emulator and then simply dump the disk image onto the compact flash card (with some specific software for it).
I hope this helps
MSXmakers
The MSX2 form factor of my machine is a desktop with detached keyboard, and the cartridge slot is a bit deeper than the normal all-in-one keyboard models. The cartridge is a later revision from the russian groups which has both an IDE port and a CF port, you can see the specifications and pictures here. The left hand side is offset outwards to accommodate a portion of the logic. It should work perfectly in the Omega though, so it isn't without it's uses.
That model MSX2 also has only one cartridge slot, the secondary interface was used for a proprietary expansion port on the back. Once people have finished their Omegas, it might be useful to have some cartridge expander boards/kits available, various designs exist and allow one cartridge port to accommodate 4 carts and given that we'll need FDC, probably CF or SD interface, and FMPACs (possibly also the network cartridge as well) those cartridge slots run out quick.
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7542 is a reply to message #7541] |
Thu, 16 April 2020 23:54   |
bifo
Messages: 48 Registered: October 2019
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jordi.solis wrote on Thu, 16 April 2020 10:49bifo wrote on Thu, 16 April 2020 12:26
... the secondary interface was used for a proprietary expansion port on the back.
Ok, is not propietary but some manufacturers did it (like my SVI 728). you just need a cable built with...
1 CCE50S-ND slot to ribbon connector
1 50 wires ribbon cable
1 1-1658527-5 standard ribbon header (female).
And so you will have a secondary slot.
MSXmakers ;-)
Thanks very much, but according to this page the even <-> odd pins are swapped around. I'm not sure what effect that would have on the slot pinout, if it would just flip it? I was searching for plans on slot expansions a while back and virtually all of them warned strongly that if you got a slot pinout wrong it was very possible to zap your MSX.
EDIT it would appear that the digikey parts 89150-0001 and C1EXS-5036G would be the best combination for mine, since the expansion port guides aren't in the center, in case anyone finds this. The CPC-400 has two guides.
[Updated on: Fri, 17 April 2020 00:31] Report message to a moderator
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7594 is a reply to message #7511] |
Sun, 03 May 2020 10:23   |
jordi.solis
Messages: 119 Registered: March 2017
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Senior Member |
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Sergey wrote on Mon, 13 April 2020 21:43jordi.solis wrote on Mon, 13 April 2020 08:51
I ordered few F4-FMPAC boards to be built, so I will be able to test at all if it's working or not.
Keep us posted!
I am building the F4-FMPAC
As I currently don't have the 27c256 chip, I understand that I can add this program to the current OMEGA's firmware chip. But I don't know how to do it. I don't understand the current memory structure inside the firmware chip very well, to know in which order I have to add this binary file to the current script. I only see that the script joins some files and also it leaves some blank spaces but I don't know where I will insert this file so that it matches the original location of an msx2.
(How those 256k fits with the full slot/subslot addressable capacity)
Along with this question, also... , you mentioned that you could change the GAL mapper so that the memory expansion would be in slot 3-0 instead of 3-2. How could I do it?
Again with the FMPAC board, it requires me to take several signals from an empty cartridge. Is that so? This it the only way to use this board?
The signals it requires are SLTSEL and CS1 from an unused slot (connected to CE and OE pins), and also some other signals such as SNDIN, +12, -12, GND that, although they are not required from a slot, are also available there.
Why do I have to lose a slot to have FMPAC? What is the difference using this board with the computers motherboards that already have included it?
Connecting the SLT output to the pin 2 of the opamp (U48) is a possibility. What if I connect there or to soundin? ok, I think you mentioned this to save some components like the op amp on the current FMPAC board.
I have also finished a design for the expanded memory card but I do not quite understand how you would like to connect it. Maybe you mean through a right angle header? As if it were a side extension module?
Thanks for your support.
Regards.
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7599 is a reply to message #7594] |
Mon, 04 May 2020 04:22   |
jordi.solis
Messages: 119 Registered: March 2017
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Senior Member |
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jordi.solis wrote on Sun, 03 May 2020 19:23
Again with the FMPAC board, it requires me to take several signals from an empty cartridge. Is that so? This it the only way to use this board?
The signals it requires are SLTSEL and CS1 from an unused slot (connected to CE and OE pins), and also some other signals such as SNDIN, +12, -12, GND that, although they are not required from a slot, are also available there.
Why do I have to lose a slot to have FMPAC? What is the difference using this board with the computers motherboards that already have included it?
Ok, I've got my answer.
tThey are only needed for the EEPROM chip operation.
Thanks for helping me on the rest of questions.
kind regards.
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7616 is a reply to message #7613] |
Fri, 08 May 2020 18:18   |
jdgabbard
Messages: 76 Registered: March 2016
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I mentioned this a while back, but really just started working on it. I don't have a working Omega at this time, but based on the KiCad files, I have been doing some measurements and planning. This is still a work in progress, and I really just started. But hope to have it ready for a test print in the next few weeks since I'm working in my spare (limited) time. This is nowhere near ready, as it still needs some work on the back for the various ports, and come cosmetic alterations for aesthetics. But I've ironed out the general shape that I was going for, I still need to contour the design... The idea was to emulate a true MSX style case. Critics are welcome share input.
The cone shaped standoffs are designed that way to improve the rigidity of the design. This is a large case (350mm x 230mm x 49mm). Not to mention they provide a little stronger mount for the PCB. I'm designing them for 4mm x 5mm M3 brass inserts. The idea is that the main board will mount in the lower shell, and the keyboard in the upper. It would be nice if there were keyboard plates that would fit this, as it would simplify not only the mounting of the keyboard, but would serve to remove any flex the PCB may end up having.
That said, even my new Core XY printer with a build volume of 330x330x400 is going to need to print these in half. And I'll need to weld them together (I have a plastic filament pen).

Doug Gabbard
Creator of the G80-S Micro Computer and 'Porter' of TinyBASIC 2.5g
Website: http://retrodepot.net
z80 TinyBASIC 2.5g: http://retrodepot.net/?p=424
AtariAge Username: jdgabbard
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7618 is a reply to message #7617] |
Fri, 08 May 2020 19:13   |
jdgabbard
Messages: 76 Registered: March 2016
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Sergey,
Thanks for the input. I plan on posting the files both split, as well as complete, in case anyone wants to modify the design. I'll take a look at the dxf files when I get a moment.
As for joystick ports, there is a cutout underneath to accommodate the ports. The slot you're seeing in the front is minimal to allow the cables to rest underneath. So it won't necessitate a larger opening.
I'm also considering a rotating cover for the cartridge ports, similar to the Casio MX-10, to keep dust out.
It's a work in progress. But I hope to have it a little more refined soon.
Doug Gabbard
Creator of the G80-S Micro Computer and 'Porter' of TinyBASIC 2.5g
Website: http://retrodepot.net
z80 TinyBASIC 2.5g: http://retrodepot.net/?p=424
AtariAge Username: jdgabbard
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7645 is a reply to message #7644] |
Wed, 13 May 2020 21:22   |
jdgabbard
Messages: 76 Registered: March 2016
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mikemac wrote on Wed, 13 May 2020 18:09I may have missed the info: what are you using to design the case with? The results look very professional as if you've done this once or twice before.
Mike, I'm using 123D. As for printing I'm using a Tronxy X5SA, with a 330x330 build plate. Though, I plan on cutting the design files down to a reasonable 200x200 for those with smaller machines. As for having done it before, I have. But not quite this nice. A special machine deserves a special case to put it in. And I wanted this to look like a real MSX.
Also, if you go back through the previous pages of this thread, I posted some pictures of a ZX Spectrum case I did, that has a built in mechanical keyboard. It's not as nice as this, but was my take on what the spectrum might have been like with a mechanical keyboard.
Doug Gabbard
Creator of the G80-S Micro Computer and 'Porter' of TinyBASIC 2.5g
Website: http://retrodepot.net
z80 TinyBASIC 2.5g: http://retrodepot.net/?p=424
AtariAge Username: jdgabbard
[Updated on: Wed, 13 May 2020 21:28] Report message to a moderator
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7647 is a reply to message #7645] |
Thu, 14 May 2020 11:08   |
mikemac
Messages: 250 Registered: March 2017
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Senior Member |
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jdgabbard wrote on Wed, 13 May 2020 21:22mikemac wrote on Wed, 13 May 2020 18:09I may have missed the info: what are you using to design the case with? The results look very professional as if you've done this once or twice before.
Mike, I'm using 123D.
I wasn't clear but I was asking about the modeling/3D design SW. But I see 123D has been discontinued by Autodesk. So my search for a 3D design package continues.
Thanks for the info.
Mike
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7648 is a reply to message #7647] |
Thu, 14 May 2020 15:22   |
jdgabbard
Messages: 76 Registered: March 2016
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mikemac wrote on Thu, 14 May 2020 11:08jdgabbard wrote on Wed, 13 May 2020 21:22mikemac wrote on Wed, 13 May 2020 18:09I may have missed the info: what are you using to design the case with? The results look very professional as if you've done this once or twice before.
Mike, I'm using 123D.
I wasn't clear but I was asking about the modeling/3D design SW. But I see 123D has been discontinued by Autodesk. So my search for a 3D design package continues.
Thanks for the info.
Mike, 123D can still be downloaded. The online portion doesn't work though. So you lose that feature. It's still a powerful package though.
Doug Gabbard
Creator of the G80-S Micro Computer and 'Porter' of TinyBASIC 2.5g
Website: http://retrodepot.net
z80 TinyBASIC 2.5g: http://retrodepot.net/?p=424
AtariAge Username: jdgabbard
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7664 is a reply to message #7663] |
Mon, 18 May 2020 15:08   |
Sergey
Messages: 236 Registered: October 2015 Location: Portland, OR
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Senior Member |
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bifo wrote on Mon, 18 May 2020 14:55As far as I know the only LS chips that are used in the Omega are the 2 for the 74LS07 which are behind HCT chips? I don't think mixing HC and LS will work? The CMOS vs TTL power requirements.
It is usually OK to mix 74HCT (note the 'T' at the end, it means TTL-compatible) with 74LS. Mixing 74HC with 74LS might be problematic, particularly when connecting 74LS outputs to 74HC inputs.
Nothing to do with power requirements. The incompatibility is because the Vih (logic "high" input voltage) of 74HC (and CMOS in general, but not 74HCT/74AHCT/74ACT) is higher than the Voh (logic "high" output voltage) of the TTL ICs. Therefore when 74LS outputs logic "high", CMOS logic is not guaranteed to read it as "high"... It will be in a gray/invalid area, and sometimes CMOS will read it as "high", other times as "low". It might even oscillate... who knows ;-)
By the way, the recommended cartridge slot buffers are also TTL (74F, but 74LS/74ALS will work too). This is because MSX standard specifies that the cartridge interface should be TTL compatible. I suspect 74HCT/74AHCT would work just as well...
[Updated on: Mon, 18 May 2020 15:09] Report message to a moderator
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7665 is a reply to message #7662] |
Mon, 18 May 2020 15:33   |
Sergey
Messages: 236 Registered: October 2015 Location: Portland, OR
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jordi.solis wrote on Mon, 18 May 2020 06:34Hi Guys,
Look at what I fount on ebay:
https:// www.ebay.es/itm/Omega-MSX2-Homebrew-Computer-IC-Kit/11410590 0693?hash=item1a913dde95:g:8O0AAOSw2bReP8n0
In theory is a kit with all chips for the omega at a good price, however, I'm not sure about them.
some of the chips are replaced and, as I far as I know that 74LS can not be mixed with 74HC, I'm not sure about the rest:
Is a AM29F040B a good substitute for the SST39SF040?
what about the rest?
Even if this is not a perfect solution can be a way to get it quite cheap.
Do you agree?
Let me know your comments.
Jordi from MsxMakers
AM29F040B is a good replacement for SST39SF040. I think there is a sector size difference, but since we are not programming (yet) Flash ROM in system, it doesn't matter. If we ever support that, the Flash utility will need to take care of the chip differences (not difficult, I've done that for my 8088-based designs).
Using 74HC instead of 74HCT/74AHCT (as the Omega design specifies) might be problematic.
<rant>
I've seen such kits for other projects, including some of my designs. I assume someone in China scans the Internet for interesting designs, and offers "kits" that include whatever ICs they could find.
Generally, I would recommend to avoid buying these kits, or any other components from China, unless these components cannot be purchased through legitimate channels (Mouser, Digikey, Avnet, etc), or local to your country/region suppliers.
There are some philosophical and practical reasons behind this recommendation:
- The components from China are frequently recycled, sometimes relabeled, sometimes faulty
- I'd rather pay money to the original manufacturer. Some manufacturers are willing to help with component availability, e.g. back in 2012 when I designed Zeta SBC, Zilog didn't offer Z84C0020PEG (20MHz CMOS Z80 CPU) parts in single quantities. After buying a batch of the relabeled, and partially defective parts from China, I've contacted Zilog marketing, and they've worked with Mouser to offer the single quantities
- I don't want to support Chinese chip counterfeiting/relabeling industry
- I don't want to support not honest people. You do understand that "New: A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item in the original package" and "Country / Region of Manufacture: Japan" description is a BS. Why not to be honest and specify, old/used/re-manufactured?
</rant>
[Updated on: Mon, 18 May 2020 20:58] Report message to a moderator
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7668 is a reply to message #7667] |
Mon, 18 May 2020 21:32   |
jdgabbard
Messages: 76 Registered: March 2016
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Hey, Sergey.
No, currently the largest size is about 175x190mm. It's going to be hard to make it any smaller without cutting it into a bunch of smaller pieces that are just going to be more difficult to put together and maintain proper alignment.
As for the joints, you could. But in my experience those puzzle type joints don't normally work out as well as a standard straight joint that has been properly epoxied, or "welded" together. I have tried it a few times, and they just don't slice properly, and cause misalignments.
Proper fusion can normally be achieved by screwing the board down to all of the pieces (to align it), then making small tacks with some spare filament and a dedicated soldering iron tip. Once these tacks are in place you can either weld it with a 3d pen, or use epoxy. Then sand smooth, primer, and paint.
Doug Gabbard
Creator of the G80-S Micro Computer and 'Porter' of TinyBASIC 2.5g
Website: http://retrodepot.net
z80 TinyBASIC 2.5g: http://retrodepot.net/?p=424
AtariAge Username: jdgabbard
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7671 is a reply to message #7667] |
Tue, 19 May 2020 06:40   |
jordi.solis
Messages: 119 Registered: March 2017
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Senior Member |
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Sergey wrote on Tue, 19 May 2020 05:40
Looks good.
Is it more than 20 cm in depth?
Also, I am wondering if it is possible to make some kind of joint between the plates (something like puzzle joints) so that they would fit better together, and it will be possible to glue them with a regular glue as opposed to the 3D printing pen?
I made it in a previous project. a modular s100 card cage.
I just added a hole and a bar who was just 0.2mm less in its diammeter (Im not sure maybe twice) they just fit and was not possible to disjoint.
you can check it at those files:
[Updated on: Tue, 19 May 2020 06:40] Report message to a moderator
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7672 is a reply to message #7668] |
Tue, 19 May 2020 06:53   |
jordi.solis
Messages: 119 Registered: March 2017
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Senior Member |
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jdgabbard wrote on Tue, 19 May 2020 06:32oard down to all of the pieces (to align it), then making small tacks with some spare filament and a dedicated soldering iron tip. Once these tacks are in place you can either weld it with a 3d pen, or use epoxy. Then sand smooth, primer, and paint.
Of course to me, this sounds more aligned, beauty result and clear plan. we can also my do my suggestion leaving more slack between the pieces, to permit alignment, then glue, sand and paint.
Regards.
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Re: MSX2 Compatible Computer Project [message #7678 is a reply to message #7675] |
Wed, 20 May 2020 12:00   |
Sergey
Messages: 236 Registered: October 2015 Location: Portland, OR
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Hi Andrii,
The Omega Motherboard is designed to support either NTSC or PAL, but it is not designed to be easily switchable between two.
With that being said, I've used NTSC values for R9 and C91 (20 kOhm and 27 pF respectively) on one of my boards, and it still works with PAL, although NTSC values might negatively impact the output quality.
C91 and L1 are only used for Composite Video output, they should not impact the RGB or S-Video quality. But if you insists on using the right value you can either install a connector (e.g. use pins from machined sockets) for C91, so you can change it if needed, or solder a 18 pF capacitor on the board and when needed connect another 10 pF capacitor in parallel for NTSC operation (e.g. using a jumper or a socket).
For R9 you can use 16 kOhm and 4 kOhm resistors connected in series, so that the resulting resistance is 20 kOhm. For the PAL operation short-circuit the 4 kOhm resistor (e.g using a jumper connected in parallel with that resistor), which will give you 16 kOhm
Thanks,
Sergey
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