RetroBrew Computers Forum
Discussion forum for the RetroBrew Computers community.

Home » RBC Forums » General Discussion » What new retrobrew projects are people interested in?
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3074 is a reply to message #3072] Wed, 14 June 2017 05:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1063
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
lynchaj wrote on Tue, 13 June 2017 18:51
Here is a simple NS32016 circuit which could be modified to include an NS32082 MMU (per the datasheet). There is a link to the schematic at the bottom. It is very simple and has only a chip or two more than a basic NS32008 circuit.

http://cpu-ns32k.net/Gary.html

If there is to be an NS32K circuit it really has to include an MMU. According to Udo, the NS32K embedded controllers lack the interface to the MMU and can't be modified to accept the MMU. Without the MMU sophisticated operating systems like *BSD, Linux, Un*x, etc. are not possible unless you got to extremely early versions like BSD 2.11 or specialty embedded systems like uCLinux. I'd argue that a computer without an MMU cannot run a BSD or Linux like OS because there is no VM or memory protection which is essential for any modern OS.


Not that this approach will be pain-free though, since we don't even have a simple monitor for NS32K AFAIK. So maybe somebody has an NS32K monitor or one would have to be written from scratch and any sort of simple program loader OS (like a port of CP/M-68K, assuming that's possible for NS32K) would also have to be done largely by hand.

Even a simple circuit is a major undertaking because so much of the hobbyist NS32K support infrastructure has atrophied away or never existed. Maybe "Gary" has some kind of ROM monitor from the original build but it sounds like it wasn't completed.
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3075 is a reply to message #3074] Wed, 14 June 2017 05:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lowen is currently offline  lowen
Messages: 226
Registered: August 2016
Location: Western NC USA
Senior Member
lynchaj wrote on Wed, 14 June 2017 08:27
... since we don't even have a simple monitor for NS32K AFAIK. So maybe somebody has an NS32K monitor or one would have to be written from scratch and any sort of simple program loader OS (like a port of CP/M-68K, assuming that's possible for NS32K) would also have to be done largely by hand.

Even a simple circuit is a major undertaking because so much of the hobbyist NS32K support infrastructure has atrophied away or never existed. Maybe "Gary" has some kind of ROM monitor from the original build but it sounds like it wasn't completed.


Is Bruce Culbertson's work useful as a starting point? There seems to be some code, mostly C with some assembler pieces, in that tree at ftp://nic.funet.fi/pub/misc/pc532/Culbertson/. I'm not sure how complete it is, but from the looks of it hex boot images seem to have been built.


--
Bughlt: Sckmud
Shut her down Scotty, she's sucking mud again!
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3076 is a reply to message #3075] Wed, 14 June 2017 07:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1063
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
I think the Bruce Culbertson material is meant for the PC532

or maybe not. Is there a schematic or PCB information regarding the Culbertson design? I see a netlist

[Updated on: Wed, 14 June 2017 07:17]

Report message to a moderator

Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3077 is a reply to message #3074] Wed, 14 June 2017 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yoda is currently offline  yoda
Messages: 125
Registered: October 2015
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Senior Member
lynchaj wrote on Wed, 14 June 2017 07:27
lynchaj wrote on Tue, 13 June 2017 18:51
Here is a simple NS32016 circuit which could be modified to include an NS32082 MMU (per the datasheet). There is a link to the schematic at the bottom. It is very simple and has only a chip or two more than a basic NS32008 circuit.

http://cpu-ns32k.net/Gary.html

If there is to be an NS32K circuit it really has to include an MMU. According to Udo, the NS32K embedded controllers lack the interface to the MMU and can't be modified to accept the MMU. Without the MMU sophisticated operating systems like *BSD, Linux, Un*x, etc. are not possible unless you got to extremely early versions like BSD 2.11 or specialty embedded systems like uCLinux. I'd argue that a computer without an MMU cannot run a BSD or Linux like OS because there is no VM or memory protection which is essential for any modern OS.


Not that this approach will be pain-free though, since we don't even have a simple monitor for NS32K AFAIK. So maybe somebody has an NS32K monitor or one would have to be written from scratch and any sort of simple program loader OS (like a port of CP/M-68K, assuming that's possible for NS32K) would also have to be done largely by hand.

Even a simple circuit is a major undertaking because so much of the hobbyist NS32K support infrastructure has atrophied away or never existed. Maybe "Gary" has some kind of ROM monitor from the original build but it sounds like it wasn't completed.


I did a quick look and it looks like gcc 2.95 was the last version to have NS32K support so it is probably possible to resurrect a gnu tool chain cross compiler for NS32K. A monitor would not be difficult as I already have a nice visual monitor for 68XXX which is almost entirely written in C. The trick probably would be getting newlib C compiled on that old of a tool chain.

Dave
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3081 is a reply to message #3076] Wed, 14 June 2017 08:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lowen is currently offline  lowen
Messages: 226
Registered: August 2016
Location: Western NC USA
Senior Member
lynchaj wrote on Wed, 14 June 2017 10:06
I think the Bruce Culbertson material is meant for the PC532

or maybe not. Is there a schematic or PCB information regarding the Culbertson design? I see a netlist


Since Bruce wire-wrapped his board, the netlist is the key documentation, and there wouldn't be any PCB documentation. A schematic can be derived from the netlist, which appears to be complete. I haven't played with KiCAD enough to know if an import from a plain-text netlist is possible.


--
Bughlt: Sckmud
Shut her down Scotty, she's sucking mud again!
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3082 is a reply to message #3081] Wed, 14 June 2017 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dgf1966 is currently offline  dgf1966
Messages: 46
Registered: November 2015
Member
I started to transfer the Culbertson netlist into KiCad some while ago, i'm about 50% through the list
and still needs considerable work to finish off.

I have never found any corrections to the netlist so it should be good.

David
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3083 is a reply to message #3082] Wed, 14 June 2017 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1063
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
There are netlist and partlist files posted in the directory. By cross referencing you should able to duplicate something similar to the original design. It does not capture PCB layout though but that might not be a big issue. I assume they used a 4 or 6 layer PCB though. ~50 chips is a pretty big board.

Would you please post a PDF of what you've done so far?
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3084 is a reply to message #3083] Wed, 14 June 2017 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lowen is currently offline  lowen
Messages: 226
Registered: August 2016
Location: Western NC USA
Senior Member
lynchaj wrote on Wed, 14 June 2017 12:09
... ~50 chips is a pretty big board....


Especially for wire-wrapped construction. Although I have several wire-wrapped boards here from various research projects; I have a couple of full-size ISA wire-wrapped expansion cards that have about 70 chips between the two boards (together the two boards were used as a very fast 32-bit ALU for a specialized radio receiver system). The boards aren't super-crowded, and would probably support 50 14-16 pin DIPs each. So 50 chips could fit on a Multibus card easily enough, and wire-wrapped multibus isn't rare (uncommon, but not rare).

For comparison, the Reh CPU280 packs 32 chips on a standard 100x160mm ECB eurocard, and it's tight.


--
Bughlt: Sckmud
Shut her down Scotty, she's sucking mud again!

[Updated on: Wed, 14 June 2017 09:27]

Report message to a moderator

Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3085 is a reply to message #3084] Wed, 14 June 2017 09:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1063
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
I'd estimate ~50 chips plus other components would probably fit on an A sized (8.5"x11") PCB assuming its not too densely packed. For trace routing purposes you want to keep it a little loose so the autorouter can solve without making a terrible mess.

I confess I wasn't aware the Culberson-32016 is completely separate from PC532. However if David is 50% through the net list in KiCAD then that's probably the way to go. Just finish it off and layout a PCB. Not that building a schematic from a netlist is going to be fun but it would be mostly repetitive drudge work.

I think Udo at CPU-NS32K.NET has KiCAD part libraries for the NS32016 and related chips. That might help speed up making the NS parts since those almost certainly would require custom footprints.
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3086 is a reply to message #3083] Wed, 14 June 2017 09:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dgf1966 is currently offline  dgf1966
Messages: 46
Registered: November 2015
Member
Andrew,

I'll do one better, I've uploaded the KiCad project folder.

Please excuse the roughness of the diagram, I was a relative newbie with KiCad when I did this
(about 18 months ago) and at the time I was just interested in transferring the netlist to some
kind of schematic.

With further time investment to complete the diagram and migrate it to a multisheet schematic it could be the
basis of a Culbertson NS32k rework.

From memory, some aspects of the netlist look very similar to the application note diagrams in the
National Semiconductor documentation, especially around the DRAM memory area.
My intention was to drop the dynamic RAM part of the schematic and use SRAM instead.

Take a look and pick out the bones Smile

David
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3088 is a reply to message #3086] Wed, 14 June 2017 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1063
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
My suggestion is to implement the circuit as close to the original as possible before attempting to make changes. Especially with PALs there are a lot of non-obvious & hidden dependencies. Once the basic circuit is known to work then consider making changes and simplifications.

Just my $0.02
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3090 is a reply to message #3088] Wed, 14 June 2017 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1063
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
Julian Stacey (Berklix) started a PC532 mailing list. He is one of the PC532 originals from "back in the day" and is helping with the re-archiving of recovered PC532 materials.



A new list PC532 has been created

pc532@mailman.berklix.org

http://mailman.berklix.org/mailman/listinfo/pc532

Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3092 is a reply to message #3088] Wed, 14 June 2017 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dgf1966 is currently offline  dgf1966
Messages: 46
Registered: November 2015
Member
Andrew,

Take a look at the attached application note for a '10Mhz No Wait States NS32016 System'
This is simpler than the Culbertson board in that it has no SCSI, no DMA chip, no floppy controller,
and it uses SRAM memory which could be expanded with modern chips to several MB.

Regards

David
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3095 is a reply to message #3092] Mon, 19 June 2017 04:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1063
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
At long last, the PC532 Gerbers (maybe):

@Alan, would you please do your Gerber conversion magic on these files and post the result. Thanks, Andrew Lynch
  • Attachment: Gerber.tar.gz
    (Size: 234.27KB, Downloaded 246 times)

[Updated on: Mon, 19 June 2017 04:10]

Report message to a moderator

Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3096 is a reply to message #3095] Mon, 19 June 2017 06:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lowen is currently offline  lowen
Messages: 226
Registered: August 2016
Location: Western NC USA
Senior Member
These gerbers load ok in the KiCAD gerbview, but they do throw an error about unknown size (RS274D or somesuch). These are the droids you're looking for.

--
Bughlt: Sckmud
Shut her down Scotty, she's sucking mud again!

[Updated on: Mon, 19 June 2017 06:44]

Report message to a moderator

Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3097 is a reply to message #3096] Mon, 19 June 2017 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
davetypeguy is currently offline  davetypeguy
Messages: 41
Registered: November 2015
Location: Chapin, SC
Member
They appear to be the correct gerbers, but they are RS274D files and lack the associated aperature report file. However, it appears that the missing info is available in http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/misc/pc532/hardware-docs/pcbinfo in the files 532.txt and 532info.txt.
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3098 is a reply to message #2951] Mon, 19 June 2017 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
davetypeguy is currently offline  davetypeguy
Messages: 41
Registered: November 2015
Location: Chapin, SC
Member
OK, I used the GerbView software to see if the aperature file info would work and it does indeed. I don't know how to deal with the drill files and don't own a license to do the conversion to RS274X, but here is the gerber set minus drill holes:

index.php?t=getfile&id=505&private=0

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I can convert these to a form that can be made into real pcbs.
Re: What new retrobrew projects are people interested in? [message #3100 is a reply to message #3098] Mon, 19 June 2017 19:12 Go to previous message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
Messages: 879
Registered: March 2017
Location: New Mexico, USA
Senior Member
gerbv lets you export files in RS-274X format, so that part is straightforward.

Looking into 532DRL.GBR, it is a Gerber plot of the drill drawings, but all I see is drill targets without the associated drill letters as described in the file, 532info.txt. I don't think there are sufficient information in 532DRL.GBR to restore a drill file. What you really needed is an Excellon drill file.

BTW the drills are not correctly aligned with the rest of the files.

Below is the header file I extracted from 532.txt and prepended to the gerber files. Is that same as yours?

%MOIN*%
%FSLAX23Y23*%
%IPPOS*%
%ADD10C,0.0100*%
%ADD11C,0.0100*%
%ADD12C,0.0120*%
%ADD13C,0.0250*%
%ADD14C,0.0500*%
%ADD15C,0.0750*%
%ADD16C,0.1000*%
%ADD17C,0.0620*%
%ADD18C,0.0620*%
%ADD19R,0.0620X0.0620*%
%ADD20C,0.0750*%
%ADD21R,0.0750X0.0750*%
%ADD22C,0.0500*%
%ADD23C,0.0550*%
%ADD24C,0.0800*%
%ADD25C,0.0850*%
%ADD26C,0.0900*%
%ADD27C,0.1000*%
%ADD28C,0.1250*%
%ADD29C,0.1500*%
%ADD70C,0.0700*%
%ADD71R,0.0700X0.0700*%
%ADD72R,0.0100X0.0100*%
%ADD73C,0.1000*%
Previous Topic: Zeta SBC and PPIDE - the PPIDE doesn't work
Next Topic: KiCAD files for 'AT2XTKBD' Board?


Current Time: Wed May 01 00:02:24 PDT 2024

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.00832 seconds