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Home » RBC Forums » General Discussion » Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects (68K, 68000, 68020, 68030, 68040, 100mm x 100mm pc board)
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3649 is a reply to message #3647] Tue, 24 October 2017 07:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ab0tj is currently offline  ab0tj
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I'd be interested in the $25 option. Even in kit form (with the Altera chip soldered on) to save you some time Smile
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3650 is a reply to message #3649] Tue, 24 October 2017 09:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
norwestrzh is currently offline  norwestrzh
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I'd be interested too, with reservations about programming and soldering the Altera chip.
Would you sell a "bare board" with programmed Altera attached, and the serial PROM as well?
How difficult is it to find a suitable DRAM SIMM to work with the board?
Roger

[Updated on: Tue, 24 October 2017 09:52]

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Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3654 is a reply to message #3649] Tue, 24 October 2017 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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Ah, good. So there are interests in Tiny68K. I should mention that shipping to US address is $4 for fully assembled board and $3 for partially assembled board. However I'm not quite ready to ship yet. I need to document the procedure for building CompactFlash disk with CP/M-68K and a simpler way to boot up CP/M.

ab0tj wrote on Tue, 24 October 2017 08:58
I'd be interested in the $25 option. Even in kit form (with the Altera chip soldered on) to save you some time Smile

ab0tj,
I'll get tired of building boards eventually, but since this is a new design, I want to build and test more of them to make sure the design is sound.


norwestrzh wrote on Tue, 24 October 2017 10:50
I'd be interested too, with reservations about programming and soldering the Altera chip.
Would you sell a "bare board" with programmed Altera attached, and the serial PROM as well?
How difficult is it to find a suitable DRAM SIMM to work with the board?
Roger

Roger,
That'll be the partial assembly for $8. I will also install all the surface mounted components especially the 20pF cap and 27K resistor associated with the 3.6864MHz crystal circuitry. They are 0603 components. Attached are the photos of the partial assembly, component side and solder side. The installed components are pointed with red arrows. I need to install the resistor R13 and header P2 because they are needed to program the Altera EPM7128. The Altera was successfully programmed and verified in this configuration. Not included in the picture is a 24C256 in 8-pin DIP package programmed with the boot software.
Regarding DRAM SIMM, at 8MHz system clock I think any 16meg SIMM72 DRAM will work. Just now I find this item on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192328564152. It should work, but the price is a bit on the high side. I'll sell a working 16-meg SIMM72 for $4. (FYI, $3 for 68000P10, $2 for 68681, and $1 for oscillator)
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3655 is a reply to message #3654] Tue, 24 October 2017 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ab0tj is currently offline  ab0tj
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plasmo wrote on Tue, 24 October 2017 15:19
I'll get tired of building boards eventually, but since this is a new design, I want to build and test more of them to make sure the design is sound.

Fair enough. That works too.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3656 is a reply to message #3655] Tue, 24 October 2017 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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ab0tj,
I took a nap and woke up realizing perhaps I missed the point of your request, that you prefer a kit of unassembled parts instead of an assembled/tested board. That was the whole point of Heathkit which I dearly loved growing up. So I'll offer two types of kits:
kit1-- $18 for bare board and all the parts needed for a Tiny68K, only part pre-programmed is the serial flash, 24C256.
kit2-- $20 for a partial assembled board like the pictures in my reply to norwestrzh (message #3650) plus the remaining parts to complete the project. Altera 7128 will be programmed so would the 24C256 serial flash.
Shipping to US address is $4 for both kits. I should be ready in a week or so.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3659 is a reply to message #3654] Wed, 25 October 2017 08:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wsm is currently offline  wsm
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Quote:
I need to install the resistor R13 and header P2 because they are needed to program the Altera EPM7128.

I think you'll find that header P2 is optional and not really required since it is only used once or perhaps a few more times. I've programmed many dozens of CPLD and PIC-based boards without soldering headers and have never had a programming failure. The header is put into the socket of the programmer or cable and then inserted into the board without solder. For the few seconds that the board is powered on during programming, slight pressure is applied at the top of the header on it's long side to twist it in the holes. Think about twisting the pins so they touch the top of the hole on one side and the bottom of the hole on the other side. Works 100% of the time for me ... so far.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3661 is a reply to message #3656] Wed, 25 October 2017 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ab0tj is currently offline  ab0tj
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plasmo wrote on Tue, 24 October 2017 18:48
ab0tj,
I took a nap and woke up realizing perhaps I missed the point of your request, that you prefer a kit of unassembled parts instead of an assembled/tested board. That was the whole point of Heathkit which I dearly loved growing up. So I'll offer two types of kits:

I wasn't even trying to be cheap Very Happy - I just enjoy soldering so I figured it would save you some time. I'd be in for the partially assembled kit as the CPLD is the part I wasn't looking forward to soldering...
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3668 is a reply to message #3661] Wed, 25 October 2017 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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ab0tj,
I understand the joy of board assembly. Heathkit's appeal wasn't low cost, but the pleasure of putting things together from scratch and gaining greater understanding of how they work.
I'll put you down for one Kit#2.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3669 is a reply to message #3659] Wed, 25 October 2017 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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wsm wrote on Wed, 25 October 2017 09:09
Quote:
I need to install the resistor R13 and header P2 because they are needed to program the Altera EPM7128.

I think you'll find that header P2 is optional and not really required since it is only used once or perhaps a few more times. I've programmed many dozens of CPLD and PIC-based boards without soldering headers and have never had a programming failure. The header is put into the socket of the programmer or cable and then inserted into the board without solder. For the few seconds that the board is powered on during programming, slight pressure is applied at the top of the header on it's long side to twist it in the holes. Think about twisting the pins so they touch the top of the hole on one side and the bottom of the hole on the other side. Works 100% of the time for me ... so far.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll give that a try. There are advantages in not soldering down the programming header because a board with just a few low-profile surface mount components can be shipped in an antistatic bag inside a padded envelope cheaply. I want to avoid soldering the header as well and my idea was building a fixture with long wire-wrap pins and bent them outward slightly so the spring tension and the sharp edges of the WW pins would make good contacts with the plated thru holes. I also have ordered some spring-loaded pogo test pins in case the previous idea doesn't work. All that may not be necessary, keep it simple stupid is the best way.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3670 is a reply to message #3669] Wed, 25 October 2017 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wsm is currently offline  wsm
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Quote:
... keep it simple stupid is the best way.

I'll openly admit that it was a stupidly simple idea that led me to try this technique. I have a board that I regularly build in batches of 10 and realized the 1x6 header was not required after shipment. I was ready to build a pogo fixture but realized I had to order some parts and it would take time to build. The light bulb went on for the KISS method and I decided to give it a try. Since then I've never installed the headers on those boards or several other designs which use a 2x5 header, including their prototypes which were reprogrammed quite a few times. So far I've had zero connection problems while programming any of them.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3671 is a reply to message #3670] Wed, 25 October 2017 22:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
norwestrzh is currently offline  norwestrzh
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OK, Bill,
Put me in for the $8 partial assembly. I have plenty of PDIP 68000's and PDIP 68681's (and oscillators), but I might need to buy one of your 16MB SIMMS.
Have to look in the "junk box" to see if I have any here.
Thanks.
Roger
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3672 is a reply to message #3656] Thu, 26 October 2017 06:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
computerdoc is currently offline  computerdoc
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Hi Bill,
I would love to get the Kit #2 with the SMDs soldered and all the other parts included. I am in the middle of saving up for a major repair and refit of my main TOWER PC computer. Will you still be selling these kits in January 2018? I definitely will be getting 1 should they still be available then.


Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc dot rr dot com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3673 is a reply to message #3672] Thu, 26 October 2017 07:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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norwestrzh wrote on Wed, 25 October 2017 23:13
OK, Bill,
Put me in for the $8 partial assembly. I have plenty of PDIP 68000's and PDIP 68681's (and oscillators), but I might need to buy one of your 16MB SIMMS.
Have to look in the "junk box" to see if I have any here.
Thanks.
Roger

Roger, I'll put you down for a partial assembly. I'll PM you when I'm ready to ship and you can tell me whether you want the SIMM included (or any parts you may need).

computerdoc wrote on Thu, 26 October 2017 07:45
Hi Bill,
I would love to get the Kit #2 with the SMDs soldered and all the other parts included. I am in the middle of saving up for a major repair and refit of my main TOWER PC computer. Will you still be selling these kits in January 2018? I definitely will be getting 1 should they still be available then.

Kip, I have plenty of parts, the only thing that may run out is the pc board. The board can be reordered and is cheap ($4.90 for 10pcs plus shipping--shipping is the expensive part). I put all my design files on the wiki page so anyone can reorder boards and put boards together.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3674 is a reply to message #3673] Thu, 26 October 2017 10:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rwiker is currently offline  rwiker
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I'd like Kit #2, if you still have any PCBs left. I'm in Norway, so shipping would obviously be more expensive.

It's intriguing that this little board is significantly more powerful than the Sage II (or IV) from 1983: faster processor, significantly more memory and faster and higher capacity mass storage.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3675 is a reply to message #3674] Thu, 26 October 2017 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
etchedpixels is currently offline  etchedpixels
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And would be interested in the built one to the UK as well.

Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3678 is a reply to message #3674] Thu, 26 October 2017 17:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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rwiker wrote on Thu, 26 October 2017 11:43
I'd like Kit #2, if you still have any PCBs left. I'm in Norway, so shipping would obviously be more expensive.

It's intriguing that this little board is significantly more powerful than the Sage II (or IV) from 1983: faster processor, significantly more memory and faster and higher capacity mass storage.


rwiker,
I set aside a Kit #2 for you. I sent a couple packages to Europe recently. The USPS First Class International seems the cheapest shipping option. It is $22.50 for up to 4 pounds.
Never used Sage computer before. Read it up on wikipedia, it seems quite capable and can run a number of different operating systems, including CP/M68K. I wonder any of the other operating system are still available? $3600 for singl-floppy entry-level configuration! Shocked Such is the deflationary force of Moore's Law.

etchedpixels wrote on Thu, 26 October 2017 12:46
And would be interested in the built one to the UK as well.


etchedpixels,
OK, a fully assembled/tested Tiny68K for you.
Bill
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3679 is a reply to message #3678] Thu, 26 October 2017 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rwiker is currently offline  rwiker
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Great - send me a PM with the payment details when you're ready to send it out.

There were quite a few operating systems available for the Sage, with UCSD p-system probably being the most common. My Sage IV (which I traded away in 1999 or so) had UCSD and something called Mirage installed when I bought it in 1989.

Bitsavers have some software for the Sage: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/Sage_and_Stride/

[Updated on: Thu, 26 October 2017 22:00]

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Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3680 is a reply to message #3673] Thu, 26 October 2017 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
computerdoc is currently offline  computerdoc
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Hi Bill,
The only thing that will mess with me on the soldering side of things are the SMDs. I have never soldered those before.
I wouldn't mind redesigning the board in Eagle with all through-hole parts if everything is available in that style case.
20MHZ 68000s in PLCC form are available. Plenty of margin for speed increases as time goes on. I like using Eagle. I
much prefer it over Kicad. I never could quite get the hang of Kicad when I first found the then called N8VEM Retrobrew
computer site. Eagle seems to fit my mind's thought processes quite well.
What form are your Tiny 68K boards' design files draw up in? May I help in this or any way? I am working on a Motorola
8-bit Multi-processor SBC board right now anyway. Sort of like a Kitchen Sink type of board as a former Motorola Chip
Design Engineer close friend of mine calls it. Smile Please let me know. I am very interested in all your 68K board designs
and have been following this topic ever since you started it. Tiny but vary capable 68Ks are of great interest to me.
Thanks for starting this thread! I really appreciate you efforts. Thanks a bunch!


Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc dot rr dot com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3681 is a reply to message #3680] Fri, 27 October 2017 04:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
computerdoc is currently offline  computerdoc
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Hi Bill,
Please put me on the list for Kit #1 All SMDs are soldered and Programmed. I should have the rest of the parts on hand or can get them when I can. Thanks a bunch.
There is a PLCC version of the EPM7128 that I'm thinking seriously of entering into Eagle so I can see what I can do on the Through hole version of your Tiny68K as an exercise and teaching aid to me. When I figure this board out, I'm let you see a pdf of it. I'd like to see what you think.


Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc dot rr dot com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3682 is a reply to message #3681] Fri, 27 October 2017 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yoda is currently offline  yoda
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I haven't seen the design files that Bill has but the PLCC version does not have as many I/O pins which will probably not allow you to convert to thru hole. I ran in the same situation a while back and have standardized on the 100 pin device - not too hard to solder.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3687 is a reply to message #3682] Fri, 27 October 2017 18:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zamp is currently offline  zamp
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Bill -- This looks like a fun system. If you still have boards, one Kit#2 with chips programmed and SMT devices soldered for me to NY State, USA. Thanks!

Ron
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3689 is a reply to message #3681] Fri, 27 October 2017 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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computerdoc wrote on Fri, 27 October 2017 05:34
Hi Bill,
Please put me on the list for Kit #1 All SMDs are soldered and Programmed. I should have the rest of the parts on hand or can get them when I can. Thanks a bunch.
There is a PLCC version of the EPM7128 that I'm thinking seriously of entering into Eagle so I can see what I can do on the Through hole version of your Tiny68K as an exercise and teaching aid to me. When I figure this board out, I'm let you see a pdf of it. I'd like to see what you think.

Kip,
OK reserve a Kit#2 for you.
Please feel free to redesign/modify all my Tinyxxx boards. I designed all my boards on a 20-year old software called WinDraft & WinBoard by IVEX. IVEX is no longer in business, so the designs need to be recreated on your tools.
As yoda correctly pointed out, the PLCC version of the EPM7128 only has 84 pins instead of the 100-pin EPM7128SQC100. In Tiny68K the 100-pin EPM7128 only has 2 spare pins, so the 84-pin PLCC will not work. I did used a PLCC84 EPM7128 in the Tiny030 design, but it requires external DRAM address mux circuitry. IMO, a 100-pin EPM7128 would've been much better solution and simplify the design considerably.
Bill
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3690 is a reply to message #3687] Fri, 27 October 2017 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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zamp wrote on Fri, 27 October 2017 19:54
Bill -- This looks like a fun system. If you still have boards, one Kit#2 with chips programmed and SMT devices soldered for me to NY State, USA. Thanks!


vamp,
OK, reserve a Kit#2 for you. That is the last pc board I have on hand.

--------------

The responses are greater than I expected. Here are the latest status of my works on Tiny68K:
* I encountered a curious bug on "pip" command: when I tried to concatenate multiple files using the command format:
pip file1.txt=file2.txt,file3.txt I get the error message:

Exception $03 at user address $0001B1BA. Aborted.

pip works fine otherwise. This error occurs in simulation as well, so it may be a bug in pip command or corrupted distribution disk.
* Beside the strange bug in "pip", most software work fine except gkermit. It just hung.
* Creating a new CF disk is kludgy. I'm not smart enough to have a general solution that reads CP/M68K image (created with cpmtools) on FAT directory and creates a CP/M CF disk. So my solution right now is using cpmtools to create a CP/M68k image, converting it to srecord and serially loading into the RAMdrive location on Tiny68K. With the disk image loaded and CP/M running, I can then copy the files in the RAMdrive into CF. This works well, except loading 2 megabyte disk image into RAM at 38.4K baud takes about 30 minutes. Only need to do this once to create a new CF disk, but it is slow nevertheless.
* Still working on an utility that will copy first 32K byte of memory into the 2nd serial flash. With this utility a new boot serial flash can be created thus allowing boot software update without the need of an external programmer.
* I did all my tests with SanDisk brand of CF which work well. I do have one Transcend brand of CF that read/write FAT16 files correctly on PC but does not read/write CP/M68k files correctly on Tiny68K. I'm concerned that Tiny68K hardware/software may only work with a subset of CF. I'm ordering a batch of Transcend CF and see if I can figure out what the problems may be.
Bill
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3691 is a reply to message #3690] Sun, 29 October 2017 07:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
etchedpixels is currently offline  etchedpixels
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In Linux at least if your CF card is just a raw CP/M image from the start of the card with nothing strange going on you can do

dd if=image.cpm of=/dev/sdwhatever

(just don't get the wrong device!Wink

For Windows I believe rawrite32 will do the same job (it's intended for making things like BSD or Linux boot images)

If you are borrowing a partition type for CP/M the way Will did for socz80 then you need to do slightly more work.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3693 is a reply to message #3689] Sun, 29 October 2017 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
computerdoc is currently offline  computerdoc
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Hi Bill,
Thank you for reserving me a Kit #2. I appreciate it very much. I was very excited to see a PLCC EPM7128, but I shortly figured out that it was not the same pin number nor I/O pin count of the 100 pin device you used in Tiny68K. Oh Shucks. Thanks for all who pointed that out.
I have not been online lately since I was attacked by Fire Ants inside the front door of our house. I found out cars aren't the only things with panic buttons! OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! I've seen the Doc and I'm doing much better now as long as I'm on my medicine.
Bill, Thanks for giving me the go ahead to reproduce your designs. I appreciate that very much. Feel free to send me all your designs when you have a few moments and I will enter them as soon as I can. The only part giving me trouble so far on Tiny68K is the EPM7128. Your pdf of the schematic has NO PIN NUMBERS anywhere. Would it be possible to put pin numbers on all the parts or at least the CPLD? In an effort to help with this, attached is an unfinished pdf of my Eagle Schematic for Tiny68K that I have created so far. The board lay out is of course a work in progress as well. You will notice a slight change. The PLCC version of the 68000 goes all the way up to 20MHZ, so I took the liberty of replacing the DIP version of the 68000. Of course, this is your design so I will do as you ask. Remember folks, this is an UNFINISHED Tiny68K board being transferred to Eagle so Do NOT USE, yet! Bill, Please let me know if I am anywhere near the right track as it were with this circuit board. When I saw your message, I felt like I needed to respond even though I'm not finished yet. Thanks for everyone's efforts and assistance. Take care my friends.


Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc dot rr dot com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3694 is a reply to message #3691] Sun, 29 October 2017 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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etchedpixels wrote on Sun, 29 October 2017 08:02
In Linux at least if your CF card is just a raw CP/M image from the start of the card with nothing strange going on you can do

dd if=image.cpm of=/dev/sdwhatever

(just don't get the wrong device!Wink

For Windows I believe rawrite32 will do the same job (it's intended for making things like BSD or Linux boot images)

If you are borrowing a partition type for CP/M the way Will did for socz80 then you need to do slightly more work.

I don't have a Linux box, so I downloaded rawrite32. My lab PC has Windows Vista, and I have problem with rawrite32 writing image to CF on my lab PC. I try it again on my other PC tomorrow. Users with access to Linux box or Windows that can write CP/M image directly to CF will have a much easier time getting the a working CF disk running on the Tiny68K.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3695 is a reply to message #3693] Sun, 29 October 2017 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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computerdoc wrote on Sun, 29 October 2017 22:42
Hi Bill,
Thank you for reserving me a Kit #2. I appreciate it very much. I was very excited to see a PLCC EPM7128, but I shortly figured out that it was not the same pin number nor I/O pin count of the 100 pin device you used in Tiny68K. Oh Shucks. Thanks for all who pointed that out.
I have not been online lately since I was attacked by Fire Ants inside the front door of our house. I found out cars aren't the only things with panic buttons! OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! I've seen the Doc and I'm doing much better now as long as I'm on my medicine.
Bill, Thanks for giving me the go ahead to reproduce your designs. I appreciate that very much. Feel free to send me all your designs when you have a few moments and I will enter them as soon as I can. The only part giving me trouble so far on Tiny68K is the EPM7128. Your pdf of the schematic has NO PIN NUMBERS anywhere. Would it be possible to put pin numbers on all the parts or at least the CPLD? In an effort to help with this, attached is an unfinished pdf of my Eagle Schematic for Tiny68K that I have created so far. The board lay out is of course a work in progress as well. You will notice a slight change. The PLCC version of the 68000 goes all the way up to 20MHZ, so I took the liberty of replacing the DIP version of the 68000. Of course, this is your design so I will do as you ask. Remember folks, this is an UNFINISHED Tiny68K board being transferred to Eagle so Do NOT USE, yet! Bill, Please let me know if I am anywhere near the right track as it were with this circuit board. When I saw your message, I felt like I needed to respond even though I'm not finished yet. Thanks for everyone's efforts and assistance. Take care my friends.


Kip,
I'll take a close look at the schematic and board layout tomorrow. My initial reactions are:
* PLCC 68000 is a good idea, it saves space and there are greater speed options.
* You should also consider a PLCC 68681. I saw one on eBay $12.16 + $1.68 shipping for 10pcs SCN68681 in PLCC44.
* Half size oscillators are great.
* You'll have plenty of room for something else, like a video controller, floppy disk controller, etc. This is a base design for future experiments.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3696 is a reply to message #3695] Mon, 30 October 2017 03:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Hi Bill,

You might want to consider using a USB Linux distro. Just plug in your Windows box and boot. Does not change your windows setup and you can use dd all you like.

Rienk
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3699 is a reply to message #3695] Tue, 31 October 2017 01:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
computerdoc is currently offline  computerdoc
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Hi Bill,
I would love to use the PLCC version of the 68681. I have only found an Advance Information datasheet for the 68681. Although it has a PLCC version of the MC68681FN, I would feel better about creating an Eagle part with the finalized Datasheet. Do you have a finalized MC68681FN Datasheet? Attached is all I can find so far. I've tried several sites. If you or anyone can find a better datasheet, I would be most grateful.


Kip Koon
computerdoc at sc dot rr dot com
http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/User:Computerdoc
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3701 is a reply to message #3699] Tue, 31 October 2017 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
norwestrzh is currently offline  norwestrzh
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try this

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Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #3715 is a reply to message #3701] Sat, 04 November 2017 20:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
Messages: 916
Registered: March 2017
Location: New Mexico, USA
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I have created a separate topic dedicated to the Tiny68K: https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/forum/index.php?t=msg& ;th=222&start=0&

I'm ready to ship assembled boards and kits! I'll PM interested members with additional info.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #4419 is a reply to message #3715] Tue, 06 March 2018 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kkeeley is currently offline  kkeeley
Messages: 26
Registered: July 2017
Location: Melbourne - Australia
Junior Member
Hi Plasmo,

Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere else. I've been looking at your Tiny030 and I'm very interested in the design, looking over the schematic I have a question about one of the parts you have used and what it is exactly. What is the IC labeled U10 DUAL-OSC? what does it do?

Thanks
Ken
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #4420 is a reply to message #4419] Tue, 06 March 2018 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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Location: New Mexico, USA
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It is ECS-300C, oscillator by ECS Inc that has a primary output and a programmable secondary output. They are hard to find and only reason I used it was because I have them. The reason the schematic looks that way is to give me the flexibility of using one or both oscillators (ECS-300C is an 8-pin device that can sit under the full size oscillator). I messed up the crystal oscillator for MC68681 and did use ECS300 to generate the 3.6864MHz baud rate clock. A redesigned Tiny030 will not have the dual oscillator.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #4421 is a reply to message #4420] Tue, 06 March 2018 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kkeeley is currently offline  kkeeley
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Location: Melbourne - Australia
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Thanks, it makes sense now.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #4423 is a reply to message #4421] Tue, 06 March 2018 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew B is currently offline  Andrew B
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Registered: October 2015
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Do you have an official ECS programmer or is there a DIY way to program the ECS programmable oscillators?

I've often thought it would be nice to be able to keep a few blank programmable oscillators in my drawer and program them as needed.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #4424 is a reply to message #4423] Tue, 06 March 2018 21:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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Registered: March 2017
Location: New Mexico, USA
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I don't have the ECS Blank Programmable oscillator. Mine has a fixed primary frequency; the secondary frequency is derived from the primary with a divided by N counter. The N is programmable by 3 jumpers select. Attached is the data sheet.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #4553 is a reply to message #4424] Tue, 10 April 2018 17:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kkeeley is currently offline  kkeeley
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Registered: July 2017
Location: Melbourne - Australia
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Hi Again,

This may have already been asked, If so, sorry.

I'm designing a 68030 system that has a lot in common with this as a starting point an I'd like to know if it's possible to change the EPM7128 for XC95144XL, I know they have different pin outs and packages but would the XC95144XL work from an electrical point of view? If I'm reading the datasheets correctly the EPM7128 is all 5 volt where as the XC95144XL is a 3.3 volt device that is 5 volt tolerant, it's VOH is 2.4 which is TTL compatible but would the likes of the 68030, 68882, Flash and SRAM accept that as a logic high or would it require level shifters to work correctly?

Thanks again,
Ken
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #4554 is a reply to message #4553] Tue, 10 April 2018 19:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
Messages: 916
Registered: March 2017
Location: New Mexico, USA
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I have not worked with Xilinx products at all so I don't know its specific I/O characteristics. MC68030/68882 operate at TTL levels so Voh of 2.4V should be sufficient to drive 68030's inputs to logic 1. If you have on-board regulator to convert 5V to 3.3V, I would adjust the supply voltage toward the high end of the spec, such as 3.5V, so the outputs levels are correspondingly higher. Part also runs faster at higher voltage.

There are so many different Flash & SRAM vendors it is hard to generalize.

I'm thinking about redesigning Tiny030 as well but that won't happen until end of this year. I still want to maintain the 2-layer PCB in 10cm * 10cm format but adding CF interface and bigger DRAM. Because of 030's dynamic bus sizing capability, it is reasonable to use one 8-bit wide boot flash instead of the serial EEPROM to save board space. The logic complexity of traditional boot flash interface is significantly lower than that of serial flash loader of Tiny68K. You may not need as complex of CPLD as EPM7128 equivalent. Sounds like you plan to use SRAM instead of DRAM? That'll reduce the logic complexity further.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #4555 is a reply to message #4554] Tue, 10 April 2018 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kkeeley is currently offline  kkeeley
Messages: 26
Registered: July 2017
Location: Melbourne - Australia
Junior Member
Hi Plasmo,

I look forward to see the changes you make to the Tiny030.

The board I'm currently designing will be the one of a few in a system designed around a vme backplane, although not pinout compatible. The boards will be either 10cm * 16cm or 10cm * 22cm, This one will be the CPU card, and I'm planning for it to only contain the CPU, FPU, single FLASH, Single SRAM and CPLD to tie it all together and a few other required bits like clock and reset. The main memory subsystem will be on a separate card and will most likely be SDRAM using a CPLD/FPGA for the memory controller, Looking to go upto 128Mb or 256Mb of RAM.
Re: Plasmo's 68k pathfinder projects [message #4556 is a reply to message #4553] Wed, 11 April 2018 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
wsm is currently offline  wsm
Messages: 232
Registered: February 2017
Location: AB, Canada
Senior Member
Quote:
... I'd like to know if it's possible to change the EPM7128 for XC95144XL, I know they have different pin outs and packages but would the XC95144XL work from an electrical point of view?

I think the short answer is that the XC95144XL should work just fine at 3.3V. I've used Xilinx's XPLA3 family which is also 5V tolerant on several different boards that have 5V chips. The single Voh datasheet number is somewhat misleading since it is very dependant on the load that you're driving. For example, the typical I/V curve for the XPLA3 family's Voh is over 3V at 10ma and 2.4V at ~40ma.

If you want to use Xilinx CPLDs, then besides the XC95144XL you might want to also look at the XCR3128XL. They're not quite as common so perhaps $1 more from places like UTsource. Instead of 54V18 function blocks they're 40V16 but the BIG difference is in lower power consumption. High speed counters at 33MHz would be about 15ma for the XCR3128XL vs. 83ma for the XC95144XL and about 200ma for the EPM7128. There is also a drastic difference in Icc at low frequencies and the XPLA3 is measured in uA.

If you want to use ABEL versus VHDL or Verilog for Xilinx CPLDs, you'll have to use a downlevel version of ISE (V10.1). I find it to be bloatware and sometimes have to fight with the optimizing options but it does work.

If you need faster CPLD's, you might want to also look at Lattice's LC4128V which can be as low as 2.7ns.
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