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Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4344] Fri, 16 February 2018 20:24 Go to next message
gkaufman is currently offline  gkaufman
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Registered: October 2015
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I previously built up two of the Multicomp Cyclone IV-B board and had both working nicely. Now for some reason one of my Cyclone boards refuses to boot the CPM/3 image, but will boot CPM/2 and MPM/2 fine.

The problem follows the Cyclone IV board, and reflashing the board doesn't help.

So I purchased two more boards from Ebay - with a slightly different PCB appearance (Green) but appear to have the same layout etc.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EP4CE6-EP4CE6E22C8N-ALTERA-FPGA-Cyc lone-IV-Development-Evaluation-Board-Core-Kit/231074176951?s sPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l264 9

When I flash these boards they seem to program fine, "count down" the LED's on startup but give a VGA signal that is out of range for my monitors.

I'd appreciate any ideas for troubleshooting, or a source for the original "Blue" Cyclone IV boards as these seem to work properly.

Many thanks!

- Gary
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4345 is a reply to message #4344] Fri, 16 February 2018 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Hi Gary

Please check the oscillator on the board, My 'green' boards use a 50 MHz clock others use a 25 MHz clock

Why this should only affect CP/M 3 is beyond me, but it nicely explains out of range VGA signals

Rienk

[Updated on: Fri, 16 February 2018 23:58]

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Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4349 is a reply to message #4345] Sat, 17 February 2018 08:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gkaufman is currently offline  gkaufman
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Sorry, my note was confusing. One of my "blue" boards stopped running CP/M 3. I tried replacing the "blue" board with "green" boards - which have the 50mhz osc. as you pointed out. The "green" boards have the out of range VGA signals.

Is there an easy way to recompile the code for a 50mhz oscillator? I guess I have to peek at the code Smile

- Gary
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4350 is a reply to message #4349] Sat, 17 February 2018 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Sure, just remove the PLL frequency doubler (PLLto50) and run straight from the system clock. Change clk25 to clk in the pin assignment (PIN_25), Basically like the Cyclone II version
You could look at my builder pages for my version

Rienk

[Updated on: Sat, 17 February 2018 11:02]

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Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4351 is a reply to message #4344] Sat, 17 February 2018 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
b1ackmai1er is currently offline  b1ackmai1er
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Time for Cyclone IV-C ??? - new cheaper FPGA board Smile (different footprint)

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/xilinx-fpga-development-boar d-spartan6-xilinx-spartan-6-XC6SLX45-xilinx-board-xilinx-spa rtan-6/967529392.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.KEhvX3
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4352 is a reply to message #4351] Sun, 18 February 2018 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Making a PCB for a new footprint is trivial, you just need the miniboard itself, because they tend to use off-grid spacing between headers.
These cheaper boards do not have the AS-interface and I have yet to figure out how to program the EPCS4 memory with JTAG. I guess I need the Serial Flash Loader Megafunction. Maybe I should look into that sometime...

As things stand, I still like the Cyclone II boards. I feel it quite adequate to have a VGA console plus 2 full handshake serials.


Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4353 is a reply to message #4352] Sun, 18 February 2018 01:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
b1ackmai1er is currently offline  b1ackmai1er
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Manufacturer say:

"JTAG: You need use ALTERA USB Blaster or ByteBlasterII Download .SOF file to FPGA chip via JTAG , but if power loss the program will be loss . You want the program not loss, you need to download .JIC file to EPCS16(or M25P16) SPI FLASH via JTAG"

Altera say:

https:// www.altera.com/support/support-resources/knowledge-base/solu tions/rd10132010_126.html

It's easy!!!

(LOL)

Edit:

It might be a bit easier than that:

http://www.alterawiki.com/wiki/EPCS_Guide

Sorry for steeling you thread Gary

[Updated on: Sun, 18 February 2018 01:54]

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Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4354 is a reply to message #4353] Sun, 18 February 2018 02:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
b1ackmai1er is currently offline  b1ackmai1er
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Are you sure there is a CPM 3 image on the SD card?

Have you changed memory configuration since you last used it i.e. removed or replaced a ram chip.

Does ram disk work ok on CPM/MPM?

Is it possible RTC has lost date & time

This is such the nature of computers ...
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4355 is a reply to message #4353] Sun, 18 February 2018 02:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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I think Gary is busy rebuilding his system Smile

Thanks for the link. Saves me the task of looking it up myself.
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4361 is a reply to message #4354] Mon, 19 February 2018 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gkaufman is currently offline  gkaufman
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I'm not sure what the problem with my original "Blue" board is. That problem is with the Cyclone IV module. Another Cyclone module works fine on the board so I'm sure it's not the ram/rtc or SD card.

As I've learned the "Green" boards have a 50mhz xtal and need the code recompiled without the PLL portion. Max is trying to locate the source for me so I can do this. If someone else has source for the last (Dec 2015) release please let me know.

A big thanks to Rienk, James and Max for helping!

- Gary

b1ackmai1er wrote on Sun, 18 February 2018 02:39
Are you sure there is a CPM 3 image on the SD card?

Have you changed memory configuration since you last used it i.e. removed or replaced a ram chip.

Does ram disk work ok on CPM/MPM?

Is it possible RTC has lost date & time

This is such the nature of computers ...

Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4369 is a reply to message #4361] Tue, 20 February 2018 12:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tor is currently offline  tor
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Is there somewhere on the net where various FPGA boards are discussed with pro/cons, maybe with focus on Multicomp-level applications? It's a jungle out there.. (ebay, aliexpress etc) so, now I see for example EP4CE10E22C8N boards, EP4CE10f17C8N, EP4CE10E22C8N (what is the difference? Altera's guide only lists 'EP4CE10'). Mostly these deveopment boards seem to have relatively little on-board RAM. And are those add-on SDRAM boards useful at all? Then there's the embedded memory, of various sizes. That E10 version has more LEs than the E6 version. But what's necessary?
Table copied from Altera's document (I excluded expensive '75 and '11 due to the table width.):
                      EP4CE6 EP4CE10 EP4CE15 EP4CE22 EP4CE30 EP4CE40 EP4CE55
 Resources:
Logic elements (LEs)   6,272  10,320  15,408  22,320  28,848  39,600  55,856
Embedded memory (Kbits)  270     414     504     594     594   1,134   2,340
Embedded 18 × 18 multipl. 15      23      56      66      66     116     154
General-purpose PLLs       2       2       4       4       4       4       4
Global Clock Networks     10      10      20      20      20      20      20
User I/O Banks             8       8       8       8       8       8       8
Maximum user I/O         179     179     343     153     532     532     374
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4370 is a reply to message #4344] Wed, 21 February 2018 00:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew B is currently offline  Andrew B
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All of the information about the part numbers is on page 12 of this PDF - https://www.altera.com/en_US/pdfs/literature/hb/cyclone-iv/c yiv-51001.pdf

As far as what the Multicomp needs, you'd need to know how the current FPGA files fit onto the devices people have used them with to know if there are enough resources on a different chip to fit.

Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4371 is a reply to message #4370] Wed, 21 February 2018 01:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Lets face it. Grant's Multicomp fits on a Cyclone II board (EP2C5T144C8, 4608 LEs 89 User I/O 11908 Memory bits)
The firmware can be run without much ado on an EP4CE6.

Most enhancements made in the code still fit on this Cyclone II configuration.
enhancements are, Full handshake serial I/O, programmable baudrate, MMU, SDHC SD, Keyboard etc.

Currently limitations of Cyclone II requires a pre-selection of I/O (VGA, Composite, Serial). depending on the implementation you can at most select 3-4 interfaces at one time.
The amount of on-chip RAM is not ideal, and choices have to be made there too.
Also Cyclone II is no longer supported by Altera, but legacy software (Quartus-free-130) is still available

The cyclone IV lets you select 5 interfaces (VGA plus 4x serial) with room to spare.
32k on-chip RAM is also quite enough for the current Multicomp implementations

When no further enhancements are foreseen, a larger FPGA is not needed.

In my opinion there currently is no need for anything bigger than the original EP2C5T144C8, however with minimal price difference the EP4CE6 seems to be the best choice.

Note: I have not kept up with with further development in 6502 or 6809 variants.

Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4372 is a reply to message #4371] Wed, 21 February 2018 11:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gkaufman is currently offline  gkaufman
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Max provided an updated .pof file that works nicely on the 50mhz "green" board. I'll get it uploaded to the wiki shortly.

- Gary
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4373 is a reply to message #4372] Wed, 21 February 2018 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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Glad you got it sorted..

Figured out why CP/M 3 stopped loading yet?
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4374 is a reply to message #4373] Wed, 21 February 2018 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gkaufman is currently offline  gkaufman
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It works with two of my Cyclone IV boards. It had been working with the third but then stopped. Reflashing didn't help, so I assume something inside the module has failed.

- Gary
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4375 is a reply to message #4374] Wed, 21 February 2018 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rhkoolstar is currently offline  rhkoolstar
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I can't figure out what kind of FPGA 'hardware' is only (or differently) used for CP/M 3. You need the BIOS source code for CP/M, which, as far as I can tell, is not available.

Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4376 is a reply to message #4375] Wed, 21 February 2018 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gkaufman is currently offline  gkaufman
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rhkoolstar wrote on Wed, 21 February 2018 14:24
I can't figure out what kind of FPGA 'hardware' is only (or differently) used for CP/M 3. You need the BIOS source code for CP/M, which, as far as I can tell, is not available.


No idea, but I'm suspicious it has to do with the bank switching - although it seems that would cause issues with MPM as well.

In any case, both of my boards are now working nicely, one blue and one green.

Max said he would send along the source files once he has them sorted out - I'll add them to the wiki once they are available.

- Gary
Re: Multicomp Cyclone IV-B [message #4377 is a reply to message #4376] Wed, 21 February 2018 19:42 Go to previous message
gkaufman is currently offline  gkaufman
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I've uploaded Max Scane's .pof file for the "Green" 50mhz Cyclone IV board to the wiki at:

https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:sbc:mu lticomp:cycloneiv-b:start#introduction

I also updated the CycloneIVDec2015 files which have the CycloneIVb.pof file for the 25mhz "Blue" Cyclone IV board as well as .bin files for CP/M2, CP/M3 and MP/M2

- Gary
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