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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9613 is a reply to message #9612] Sun, 16 January 2022 04:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2022
Location: Czech Republic
Junior Member
Hi,
I have questions, maybe I should re-read the documentation, maybe there are answers.
I add that I have a CPU speed of 3.5MHz and I mixed LS / ALS and HCT chips.

1 / Z80PROC3 - WAIT LED - shouldn't it be connected behind jumper JP2? It still shines like this. Still showing Wait cycles.

2 / Z80SERIAL3 - is jumper J1 used in RomWbW? I didn't influence whether INT was used

3 / Z80ROM2 - When I want to use only 32kB Eprom without RomWBW. E.g. simple image NASCOM 8K BASIC.
I set: K1, K6 and K8 according to the type EEPROM / EPROM / 32 / 28pin
JP1 will be closed for access to the lower 32kB and K2 does not matter how it will be set?
I get it OK?

4 / Z80RAM3 - here is the worst :), very complicated board, at least for me :)
Please, can I use only 1x512kB chip?
Is it enough not to install RAM1?
JP1 when it is closed so it means the only RAM board in the system and at startup it is connected to the bus, right? I get it OK?
K9 allows me to switch upper and lower 32kB as needed, right?
K6 is for the size of the upper switchable RAM (32 or 16), right?

I still can't quite imagine the combinations JP1, K9 and K6 :(.

Please when I want to run NASCOM 8K BASIC again with 32kB ROM and 32kB RAM, how to set JP1, K9 and K6?

Thanks a lot and I apologize for so many questions and for my English
Jan

[Updated on: Sun, 16 January 2022 05:34] by Moderator

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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9614 is a reply to message #9613] Sun, 16 January 2022 04:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2022
Location: Czech Republic
Junior Member
Hi,
still query RAM 512 / 1024kB.
Is the error wrong with me or RomWBW?
Whether I put 512 or 1024kB, it still shows me the same RAMDisk size 256kB
I would expect more at both 512 and 1024.
512 - 64 = 448
1024 - 64 = 960
Where is the problem ?

512kB
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2613&private=0
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2612&private=0

1024
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2614&private=0
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2615&private=0

Thanks a lot
Jan
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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9615 is a reply to message #9608] Sun, 16 January 2022 04:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
Hi Jan
Wow! Looks great! Thanks for the photos, you've really done a wonderful job. I hope you enjoy your new Z80 MBC system

There are a bunch of new boards in design for the future. At the moment working through some issues with the Z80 CTCDART and Z80 DUALPIO but plan on ordering respin PCBs hopefully this week. I post on the nhyodyne github repo.

Congratulations and thank you very much for posting. I hope you enjoy your system and the best of luck!

Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9616 is a reply to message #9610] Sun, 16 January 2022 04:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
eugene wrote on Sun, 16 January 2022 00:05
Hi Andrew,

It all run probably. One question to ask. Is there possible to only install one 512k SRAM on memory bord to boot RomWBW? How to setting the jumper of the memory board. Any advices, Thanks.

Nice build vackon. Good luck.

Thanks
Eugene
Hi Eugene,
Yes, the Z80 RAM board will work fine with one 512KB SRAM only. There are no differences in jumper settings between the 1MB and 512KB SRAM configurations since the extra chip is detected by software in RomWBW-dev.

There are a bunch of jumpers on the Z80 RAM V3 board though. I described them on the nhyodyne repo and also documented them on the schematic in more detail. Here is a summary:
Jumpers
JP1 is Boot RAM Option. Pins 1-2 closed (default) for Boot enable assuming single RAM board present in system. Will cause upper 32KB RAM page to be present at power on or after reset. Only one RAM board per system can be boot enabled. Multiple RAM boards can be present but only one can be boot enabled and rest must have JP1 open or bus contention.

K2 is RAM size option. Pins 1-2 closed for 128KB RAMs (both RAM0 and RAM1) (default). Pins 2-3 closed for 512KB RAMs.

K7 is for 32 pin 128KB RAM0 or 512KB RAM0. Pins 1-2 closed for 512KB RAM (default). Pins 2-3 closed for 128KB RAM. One or the other must be selected.

K9 is for select Upper 32KB of RAM to be fixed, Lower 32KB of RAM to be switchable Pins 2-3 closed (default) or both to be switchable pins 1-2 closed. Note: software needs to support latter feature. RomWBW assumes default of pins 2-3 closed. One or the other must be selected.

K6 is to select whether fixed top of RAM to be 32KB pins 1-2 closed (default) or 16KB pins 2-3 closed. One or the other must be selected.

JP2 is battery select jumper option supports both RAM0 and RAM1. Pins 1-2 closed for onboard CR2032 battery (default). Pins 3-4 must be closed also if CR2032 is used (default). Optionally pins 3-4 can be used as external battery connector with pin 4 is positive terminal, pin 3 is negative (ground).

JP3 and JP4 for U16 DS1210 installed pin 1-2 open (default). Closed both pins 1-2 to bypass. Default is both open. Note, if pins 1-2 closed U16 must be removed or unreliable operation.

K3 DS1210 RAM0 power sag tolerance feature, pins 1-2 closed 10% power sag (default), pins 2-3 closed 5%. One or the other must be selected or NVRAM will not work. If experiencing random lockups try 10% power sag setting or diagnose power supply issues.

JP5 and JP6 for U9 DS1210 installed pin 1-2 open (default). Closed both pins 1-2 to bypass. Default is both open. Note, if pins 1-2 closed U9 must be removed or unreliable operation.

K1 DS1210 RAM1 power sag tolerance feature, pins 1-2 closed 10% power sag (default), pins 2-3 closed 5%. One or the other must be selected or NVRAM will not work. If experiencing random lockups try 10% power sag setting or diagnose power supply issues.

My advice is to remove the DS1210s and set the jumpers to bypass them at least initially. Install only a single 512KB SRAM chip. Set boot jumper and install the rest of the jumpers as appropriate. Go with the defaults for K6 and K9 jumpers at least at first -- these can be troublesome and introduce subtle problems if not configured to default. They work fine but require special software to implement these features.

One thing that helps me is to post a photo of your board with jumpers installed so people can compare to theirs. If you are having issues this will sometimes flush it out.

Good luck and please post your progress. If you have any questions I am standing by to help get you going. Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9617 is a reply to message #9613] Sun, 16 January 2022 05:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
vackon wrote on Sun, 16 January 2022 07:05
Hi,
I have questions, maybe I should re-read the documentation, maybe there are answers.
I add that I have a CPU speed of 3.5MHz and I mixed LS / ALS and HCT chips.

1 / Z80PROC3 - WAIT LED - shouldn't it be connected behind jumper JP2? It still shines like this. Still showing Wait cycles.

The Z80 CPU inserts one wait state for every IO cycle regardless so even if the wait state generator is completely disabled and bypassed you will still get some wait states whenever you access IO like UART. Depending on your selection of the LED it can shine brightly. On mine it is dimly lit but you can still tell it is on especially when accessing IO like polling the UART. I recommend bypassing the wait state generator at least initially. That's remove JP2 on the Z80 Processor board. Some wait states are just inherent on the Z80 CPU and the wait state generator just adds more if needed. It's mostly for legacy peripherals like really old EPROMs and slow IO devices. Really haven't had much application for it yet but we know it works just fine. If the LED is too bright you might consider boosting the value of R3 to 470 ohms or even 1K ohms. Also be sure to set the wait state jumpers (J1-J4) to the lowest possible setting (0 WS for memory and 1 WS for IO)

Quote:


2 / Z80SERIAL3 - is jumper J1 used in RomWbW? I didn't influence whether INT was used

Yes, the J1 enables the INT# from the UART but the RomWBW-dev has to be specially configured to enable the interrupt mode for UART. By default it is polling only. We went through a lot of trials and tribulations trying to sort out the INT for UART. I can say it definitely does work but can be a real challenge to set up so that's why it is polling only by default. For example, if you are using a TTL serial to USB cable it has to support hardware (CTS/RTS) handshaking and so does your terminal computer and terminal program. I've gotten it to work but this is a complicated topic probably worth its own thread. I know Wayne has gone through this before with RC2014 with very similar circumstances. My advice is to get a 16C550C compatible UART (not 16C550A) with automatic flow control. RomWBW-dev will autodetect it and it will go really fast assuming all the handshaking issues are resolved. Plus, it won't use interrupts which really speed things up.

I recommend getting everything else working first and then tackling the INT for UART issue. It works but is a pain to get all the bits and pieces aligned properly. Really not sure how much of an improvement INT is over straight polling either so the results were rather anti-climatic. I would go with the AFC (16C550C) type UART and get that working instead.

Quote:



3 / Z80ROM2 - When I want to use only 32kB Eprom without RomWBW. E.g. simple image NASCOM 8K BASIC.
I set: K1, K6 and K8 according to the type EEPROM / EPROM / 32 / 28pin
JP1 will be closed for access to the lower 32kB and K2 does not matter how it will be set?
I get it OK?

That's correct. with 28 pin EPROM you'll only get one page of lower 32KB ROM and that's it. K2 is for higher address lines which do not affect the 28 pin EPROM. Honestly, you might be the first person to try this in the field so I am very interested in your results. The idea for the 32KB ROM support was for early development so RomWBW-dev really doesn't apply here. It should work but the ROM MPCL really won't do much since there are no other ROM pages to switch. You can switch out the ROM though but that's about it.

Quote:



4 / Z80RAM3 - here is the worst :), very complicated board, at least for me :)
Please, can I use only 1x512kB chip?
Is it enough not to install RAM1?
JP1 when it is closed so it means the only RAM board in the system and at startup it is connected to the bus, right? I get it OK?
K9 allows me to switch upper and lower 32kB as needed, right?
K6 is for the size of the upper switchable RAM (32 or 16), right?

I still can't quite imagine the combinations JP1, K9 and K6 :(.

Please when I want to run NASCOM 8K BASIC again with 32kB ROM and 32kB RAM, how to set JP1, K9 and K6?

Yes, Z80 RAM V3 is the most complicated and troublesome board. If there is a problem with a new system most of the time it is the RAM board.

You can use only a single 512KB SRAM chip. I did for a long time and it works fine. There are no jumper differences between 512KB and 1MB RAM configuration because it is all detected by software. RAM1 is purely optional. JP1 must be installed if you have a single RAM board because it tells that is the default RAM board. Otherwise it will be silent after reset and no RAM present. RomWBW-dev definitely needs some start-up RAM. Only one RAM board per system can have JP1 installed so there is a "boot" RAM and the rest are enabled through software.

K9 is for select Upper 32KB of RAM to be fixed, Lower 32KB of RAM to be switchable Pins 2-3 closed (default) or both to be switchable pins 1-2 closed. Note: software needs to support latter feature. RomWBW assumes default of pins 2-3 closed. One or the other must be selected.

K6 is to select whether fixed top of RAM to be 32KB pins 1-2 closed (default) or 16KB pins 2-3 closed. One or the other must be selected.

I think JP1, K9, and K6 would be the same for either RomWBW-dev or NASCOM. I would put them in default settings at least at first.

Please let me know if this does not work for you and we can investigate further on what is happening

Quote:



Thanks a lot and I apologize for so many questions and for my English
Jan

No problem! Happy to help and glad you are trying out the system. Best of luck! Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9618 is a reply to message #9614] Sun, 16 January 2022 05:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
vackon wrote on Sun, 16 January 2022 07:35
Hi,
still query RAM 512 / 1024kB.
Is the error wrong with me or RomWBW?
Whether I put 512 or 1024kB, it still shows me the same RAMDisk size 256kB
I would expect more at both 512 and 1024.
512 - 64 = 448
1024 - 64 = 960
Where is the problem ?

Hi Jan

There is no problem but RomWBW-dev does require special settings in MBC_std.asm to see 1MB RAM and set the RAM drive to larger format. Similar for the ROM drive. RomWBW-dev by default recognizes the 512KB memory configuration and takes some for itself resulting in a moderate sized RAM drive with 512KB SRAM. With the settings in MBC_std.asm you get the larger RAM drive.

RomWBW-dev needs some RAM and ROM for itself depending on your configuration. That's how it keeps the TPA for CP/M so high is it moves the CBIOS driver code and a bunch of other stuff into extended RAM and ROM. I'll post my MBC_std.asm as an example later today

Quote:


Thanks a lot
Jan
  • Attachment: MBC_std.asm
    (Size: 2.32KB, Downloaded 128 times)

[Updated on: Sun, 16 January 2022 06:57]

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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9621 is a reply to message #9618] Sun, 16 January 2022 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2022
Location: Czech Republic
Junior Member
Hi,
thanks a lot for more information.
I always prefer to understand how it works Smile. I always have to really touch and test it Smile.
The MBC design is really very nice and robust.

My opinion is that assembling and breaking up 4 boards at once is a big task.
Therefore, I try to simplify the first run as much as possible. Use a simpler ROM and RAM image without paging, or connect to a working system.
I also connected MBC with RC2014 and tuned the boards one by one.

Thanks for configuring RomWBW, I have to study it.

I will continue to debug and test various configurations.
I'll send feedback.

Have a nice day
Jan
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9622 is a reply to message #9621] Sun, 16 January 2022 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2022
Location: Czech Republic
Junior Member
Hi,

One more thing. Maybe you will have experience and teach me time.

I have a problem on the MBC bus. My system now depends on the order of the boards on Z80BCKPLN1.

I need to have the Z80RAM3 in a slot closer to the Z80PROC3 than the Z80ROM2.
E.g.
UART, nothing, ROM, nothing, RAM, nothing, PROC that's OK
UART, Nothing, RAM, Nothing, ROM, Nothing, PROC that's not OK
It's strange, but it's true.

Some timing issue, build error, or faulty chip.

I'll check all the connections and replace the chips, or build another RAM board to check.

Some idea, some advice Smile.
Thanks a lot
Jan
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9623 is a reply to message #9621] Sun, 16 January 2022 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
Hi Jan

There are some test programs (ROM only) in the nhyodyne repo here: https://github.com/lynchaj/nhyodyne/tree/main/Z80MBC/TestPro grams

If you write any new programs please upload them to the repo. There are a bunch of neat utility tools with source code to help test one function at a time.

you're doing it right, build and test one board at a time with as few variables as possible.

Good luck! Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9624 is a reply to message #9622] Sun, 16 January 2022 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
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vackon wrote on Sun, 16 January 2022 15:10
Hi,

One more thing. Maybe you will have experience and teach me time.

I have a problem on the MBC bus. My system now depends on the order of the boards on Z80BCKPLN1.

I need to have the Z80RAM3 in a slot closer to the Z80PROC3 than the Z80ROM2.
E.g.
UART, nothing, ROM, nothing, RAM, nothing, PROC that's OK
UART, Nothing, RAM, Nothing, ROM, Nothing, PROC that's not OK
It's strange, but it's true.

Some timing issue, build error, or faulty chip.

I'll check all the connections and replace the chips, or build another RAM board to check.

Some idea, some advice :).
Thanks a lot
Jan
Hi Jan
That suggests timing to me. When in doubt use 74ls chips. The Z80 serial V3 is especially sensitive to Z80 bus interface chips if they are 74ALS, 74HCT, etc. Some boards are insensitive to substitutions but others not. Did you use 74F on the Z80 RAM and Z80 ROM boards? 74LS should work there too but 74F will give you more margin. 74HCT tend to be slower. I've found 74ALS can be too fast for the TL16C550C for some unknown reason.

Normally I place the RAM and ROM boards closer to the Z80 processor and then Z80 clock and Z80 DMA surrounding them. Put the IO boards on the outside because for the most part they tend to be the least sensitive (PPIDE, DUART, FDC, etc.) plus the Z80 CPU forces a wait state for every IO access. Except Z80 serial V3 for some reason. I used a 74ALS245 and it really caused intermittent problems with the Z80 serial V3. I replaced it with 74LS245 and they disappeared. When in doubt, you 74ls chips. That will usually help the timing related issues. Bus placement sensitivity is a sign of timing issues.

If you have mixed families of chips in your build try swapping chips from one board to another and see if you can get the problem to follow. I use two systems and can normally fault isolate a flakey board pretty quickly.

Good luck! Thanks, Andrew Lynch

[Updated on: Sun, 16 January 2022 17:42]

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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9625 is a reply to message #8396] Mon, 17 January 2022 03:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2022
Location: Czech Republic
Junior Member
Hi,
thanks for the link to TEST software. I missed it.
I would like to help, but I haven't programmed in assembler since school (30 years ago). I have to do it again.

Yes, you're right, my problem is timing.
I've done a few tests - a different CPU frequency, a new backplain board, swapping chips, and as a final test unification of the TTL series. The last change is the right way.
Today I will order the F series TTL, according to your suggestions and I will remove HCT everywhere.
Yes, the second set is a good thing, I will build it too Smile. I did the same with RC2014.
Unfortunately, F and LS are more expensive today than HCT. Maybe use HCT and AHCT. Has anyone tried it?
Thanks a lot
Jan
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9626 is a reply to message #9625] Mon, 17 January 2022 05:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
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Hi Jan
There are many places where 74HCT, 74ACT, etc. will work. Anywhere I've tried 74HCT688s they've worked fine. Many of the miscellaneous glue logic can be 74HCT but there are a few key places where it causes troubles. I think the 74LS245 data bus transceiver is a sensitive spot. The 74ls244 bus buffers are generally not though and I have used many 74ACT244s. I think the key is to build the system so it is reliable and stable first and then do substitutions to see what is affected by the changes. Often there are other issues in play during an initial build so I recommend making substitutions after you get it running smoothly. I've done quite a few but only one at a time.

The system was designed with 74ls in mind but is tolerant of other logic families to an extent. If price were not an issue I would use all 74ls and 74f throughout my own systems. I have a lot of leftover ICs from other projects I am trying to use up and not buy new ones so it is worth some time to do substitutions.

Thanks and good luck! Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9628 is a reply to message #9626] Mon, 17 January 2022 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eugene is currently offline  eugene
Messages: 5
Registered: January 2022
Junior Member
Hi,

I finally got the RomWBW v3.1 working.

/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2617&private=0

But no luck on install only one 512K SRAM on memory board to boot RomWBW. I am using RAM Memory Board V2.

Thanks
Eugene
  • Attachment: romwbw31.jpg
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[Updated on: Mon, 17 January 2022 14:42]

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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9630 is a reply to message #8396] Tue, 18 January 2022 00:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2022
Location: Czech Republic
Junior Member
Hi,
small question, is it possible to specify which SP1 speaker you used on the Z80Clock board?
I'm ordering and I don't know if it's expected Electromagnetic buzzers Without oscillator circuit (passive)
e.g. https://cz.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TDK/SD1614T5-B5ME?qs=W0y vOO0ixfFFx4HV4HmQKQ%3D%3D

or with oscillator (active, one tone, one frequency).

Thanks a lot
Jan
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9632 is a reply to message #9628] Tue, 18 January 2022 03:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
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eugene wrote on Mon, 17 January 2022 17:39
Hi,

I finally got the RomWBW v3.1 working.

/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2617&private=0

But no luck on install only one 512K SRAM on memory board to boot RomWBW. I am using RAM Memory Board V2.

Thanks
Eugene
Hi Eugene! Yay! Looking great! I see your system recognizes an AY-3-8910 sound board. Must be from the RC2014 side. Really cool!

There is a setting in MBC_std.asm regarding installed RAM. I'll find the line in the version I posted earlier

Congratulations! That's real progress. I hope you enjoy your Z80 MBC system!

Thanks, Andrew Lynch


PS, it is:

RAMSIZE .SET 1024 ; INSTALLED RAM

for 512KB change above to 512, I think that is the default setting

[Updated on: Tue, 18 January 2022 03:25]

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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9633 is a reply to message #9630] Tue, 18 January 2022 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
vackon wrote on Tue, 18 January 2022 03:33
Hi,
small question, is it possible to specify which SP1 speaker you used on the Z80Clock board?
I'm ordering and I don't know if it's expected Electromagnetic buzzers Without oscillator circuit (passive)
e.g. https://cz.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TDK/SD1614T5-B5ME?qs=W0y vOO0ixfFFx4HV4HmQKQ%3D%3D

or with oscillator (active, one tone, one frequency).

Thanks a lot
Jan
Hi
Definitely not the active, one-tone, one frequency oscillator. You need a generic piezo speaker/buzzer. It only does beeps for now but the speaker is capable of much more. It just needs a speaker/tone driver. It won't be a sound card but more than a single beep.

This is the one I used. Most any piezo speaker/buzzer that fits (check the datasheet for proper pin spacing dimensions -- critical) will work. I usually end up putting a 10K ohm resistor across the terminals on the back of the PCB to boost the volume up a bit. Otherwise they can be so faint I can barely hear them. I think a 0.1 uF capacitor would do a similar job to boost the voltage some across the terminals.

https://www.jameco.com/z/EAT-17-Projects-Unlimited-Speaker-P iezo-3800Hz-80dB-20-Voltp-p-1mA-2-Wire-6-9mm-x-14mm_2151216. html

It is the same piezo speaker as from the ECB SBC V2-004. Phillip added the speaker circuit in a later revision of the Z80 SBC. A great addition! It's a QMB-6 speaker or compatible

https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:sbc:sb c_v2:sbc_v2-004:development

http://www.starasia.com/productdetail.asp?ID=192

https://www.electronicsurplus.com/star-qmb06-audio-alarms-an d-buzzers-pzt-sound-transducer-buzzer

probably most any piezo speaker/buzzer with the proper pin spacing will work. You don't need a Star Micronics QMB-6 unless you have one handy -- just something close. They're pretty generic

I hope this helps! Good luck and Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9639 is a reply to message #9633] Thu, 20 January 2022 01:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eugene is currently offline  eugene
Messages: 5
Registered: January 2022
Junior Member
Hi,

I got the memory board working on install only one 512K SRAM (AS6C4008). And booting the RomWBW normally. It was the K2(256K/1M) jumpper setting. Put K2 jumper on left hand side then it work. Thanks Jan, for your pic.

Thanks
Eugene

So Jan, maybe you need to put K2 jumper to right hand side to get 1024K to work.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 January 2022 01:23]

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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9648 is a reply to message #9639] Thu, 20 January 2022 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2022
Location: Czech Republic
Junior Member
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2623&private=0

Hi,

today arrived a series of "F" TTL chips. I also got a cheap 74LS688 Smile.
I changed the chips of the whole MBC according to your recommendation and the timing is OK.
I can install boards in any order and it's stable Smile .
I will build another MBC set for backup and debugging Smile.

Maybe one mistake when I had a CPU on one side next to UART and RAM and a ROM on the other side of the motherboard.
At the same time, I set the memory read wait cycles from 1 to 7, so once or twice, the boot crashed while testing the system.
When I set 0 wait cycles for reading memory, everything was OK.
Changing other wait cycles had no effect.
0 wait cycles was OK.

The error is not simply repeatable. I tried again now and the error was repeated only for waiting cycle 7 to read from memory. 0 to 6 was OK.
I hope you understand me Smile.
I will still test, but otherwise it is very stable and reliable.
It would be interesting to build a SIO or DART and replace a UART.

@eugene yes maybe, but I haven't compiled RomWbW yet. I'm using the default build from the @wwarthen repository

Have a nice day
Jan
  • Attachment: F_TTL.jpg
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[Updated on: Thu, 20 January 2022 13:35]

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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9649 is a reply to message #9648] Thu, 20 January 2022 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
Messages: 1065
Registered: June 2016
Senior Member
Hi Jan
Yay! Congratulations! That's great! I am so happy you've gotten your Z80 MBC working. I hope you enjoy it and have a lot of fun with it

I usually put the Z80 processor in the middle of the backplane and then the RAM and ROM on each side. Then put the clock and DMA boards on either side of those. The IO boards are slowest so they go on the outsides.

Were you able to identify which particular chip or chips were causing you problems? Once you get it stable you can continue to substitute until you isolate the main offender and that's good information to have and share with others. Some chips are more sensitive to timing than others. I've found the 74ls245s are the most sensitive but it could be others too.

I think 74F is my favorite logic family followed by 74LS. Good pick!

The funny thing with wait cycles is too many can be as detrimental just like too few. Often there are implicit timing in code and wait states can mess things up. I've found running with the minimum required is the most stable. Z80 likes fast memory responses especially for M1# cycle.

The Z80 CTCDART (SIO too) and Z80 DUALPIO boards will be available soon. I have prototype boards sort of working but it looks like they'll need PCB respins. I estimate they should be available in 1 month give or take a few days. Then you can use SIO/0 instead of 16C550 UART

Be sure to use RomWBW-dev branch for Z80 MBC support! Thanks, Andrew Lynch



Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9662 is a reply to message #9649] Sun, 23 January 2022 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
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/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2632&private=0
Hi,
I report the assembled second set, including the Z80CLOCKV2 and Z80PPIDE2 boards.
RomWbW set to 7.3728 MHz and 1MByte Smile.
Everything works OK, including the speaker
I have a question about USER LED 1 and 2.
Do these have any function when booting Rom WbW?
They both light up at boot and go out when CP / M starts. It's OK ?
Have a nice day
Jan
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9664 is a reply to message #9662] Sun, 23 January 2022 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi Jan, Yay! Congratulations! It looks great! I like the little monitor. Are you going to build the Z80 KBDMSE & Z80 VDC boards?

I've found the second set of boards is a huge help in fault isolation in boards. One of the nice things about the Z80 MBC is that if you have a problem in one area you can isolate it and fix it without the whole system going down. Very handy.

Working on the Z80 CTCDART board this weekend. I have some parts on order and plan to order the respin PCBs this week. The changes aren't too bad to get the V1 boards working but I recommend people wait until the respin PCBs are available. It's just a pain to rework a board so it's better to get a PCB that's all cleaned up first.

Thanks for the photos and I hope you enjoy your new system! Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9666 is a reply to message #9664] Sun, 23 January 2022 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrgcms is currently offline  mrgcms
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Hi Andrew,

Will the re-spins fix the interrupt issue with the initial boards, or will you be dropping interrupt support to match the "tweaked" initial boards? I'm eagerly awaiting the PIO and CTCDART boards but will definitely wait till the bugs are ironed out.

By the way - loving playing with this system. It's much more fun that the RC2014 I was playing with prior to this coming along.

Dave White
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9667 is a reply to message #9666] Sun, 23 January 2022 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi Dave
The new Z80 CTCDART and Z80 DUALPIO will have working IM2 support. The current V1 boards have been modified for IM2 support but the changes are extensive enough which is no fun. They can be done but definitely a PCB respin is warranted so I'll be ordering them this week -- probably tomorrow. But to answer your question, both will fully support IM2 mode. The current boards work with the mods and the new boards will work no mods required. At least that's the plan.

Thank you for your kind words. It has been a lot of fun building Z80 MBC and I hope people enjoy it. There are a bunch of new boards in the pipeline although the CTCDART and DUALPIO are taking longer than I'd hoped. They are important enough to spend the time to get them right. Since it is modular you can make your own boards for all those exotic peripherals you've always wanted! Enjoy! Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9669 is a reply to message #8396] Mon, 24 January 2022 07:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
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Hi,
the VDC board looks interesting, but the MOS 8568 chip is terribly expensive for hobby projects (39 EUR Via German ebay).
I was also interested in the board for CPU 6502, I have never worked with it before, but I have one WDC65C02 at home, which is a little different than the original MOS 6502.
I also need to order an Extended backplane.
Please will it be possible to use Z80 SIO in Z80CTCDART1 board? The pins differ minimally and it could be solved by jumpers.
Have a nice day
Jan
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9670 is a reply to message #9669] Mon, 24 January 2022 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi Jan
The MBC65C02 board uses the Rockwell R65C02 CPU. It has issues with the WDC65C02 and not 100% certain why but it is rock solid with the Rockwell 65C02. It does not use the older NMOS 6502 since there are some differences added with the CMOS version.

The Z80 CTCDART does use the SIOs. It will use the SIO/0 as a drop in replacement for the DART. Other SIO versions are also supported with various differing pins.

I just ordered the new Z80 CTCDART and Z80 DUALPIO PCBs today so they should be here in about 3 weeks. I would use those before the current ones. I think I am going to remove them from the nhyodyne repo to reduce confusion.

There is a low cost video board in the works (Z80 PropIO) but it is probably a couple of months away or maybe more. It is on my list to boards though. Hopefully soon!

Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9671 is a reply to message #8396] Mon, 24 January 2022 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
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Registered: January 2022
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Hi,

WDC65C02 has several pins connected differently, but it is possible to modified (jumpers). You probably know that.
https://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/AN-002_W65C02S_Repla cements.php

Please, today the documentation updated for the Z80CTCDART2 board is the latest version and is it possible to install SIO/0?
https://github.com/lynchaj/nhyodyne/blob/main/Z80CTCDART2/Z8 0CTCDART2-schematic.pdf

PROPIO is a very nice design, I have already seen it in RC2014.
I use a cheap and simple solution with a PIC chip. Unfortunately, I don't have to draw KiCad as another MBC board yet, but I'll learn.

https://geoffg.net/terminal.html
https://hackaday.io/project/173216-ascii-video-terminal
https://github.com/dhansel/TerminalUSB

Have a nice day
Jan
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9672 is a reply to message #9671] Mon, 24 January 2022 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi Jan
Yes, the new Z80 CTCDART V2 will use the SIO/0 equivalent to the DART. No changes needed. I have the Z80 PropIO already designed but not ordered prototype boards yet. Need to get through some of these other boards first. Hopefully in a few weeks. Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9675 is a reply to message #9672] Mon, 24 January 2022 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrgcms is currently offline  mrgcms
Messages: 7
Registered: August 2020
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Andrew,

I've been playing with a logic analyzer and a proto board, to get a feel for the Z80 signaling and the effect of wait states. I've written a small routine that accesses the card, reads and writes to strobe the CS signal, and I'm probing the signals while I vary the wait jumpers.

On the GitHub page for the Proc3 module, it states that for the IORQ wait states, "Z80 processor has 1 WAIT state for IO reads/writes by default. J3 & J4 IO WAIT states are not additive but represent total number", but that doesn't appear to be the case. With the wait state generator disabled, my IORQ time is 208nS (12 MHz clock), with the generator enabled and the jumper on the first links, which should be the CPU internal 1 default wait state, i.e. I shouldn't see a difference in the IORQ timing, it's now 292nS. Each subsequent jumper adds around 84nS.

So it looks like for IORQ, disabling the WS generator results in the single default wait state, and with the generator enabled, we get 2-9 wait states, not 1-8.

The RAM wait states do appear to start at 0, so the jumpers yield 0-7 wait states, as is stated in the readme.

Dave White
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9676 is a reply to message #9675] Tue, 25 January 2022 02:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi Dave
Interesting! So if you disable wait states then you get 1 IO ws and 0 mem WS? During the design I thought the lowest setting for didn't add a ws but apparently not. Thanks!

Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9678 is a reply to message #9675] Tue, 25 January 2022 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi Dave

I had thought that leaving the WS enable jumper installed with the mem & IO jumpers on the lowest settings was no-impact but that seems to not be right. I tried removing the WS enable jumper and the IO does seem to be quite a bit quicker -- both serial console and disk IO.

Nice improvement, remove one jumper and get a sizeable increase in performance. Great find! Thanks!

Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9679 is a reply to message #8396] Wed, 26 January 2022 01:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2022
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Hello Andrew

I still have to think about why I had a problem with HCT chips. I noticed you had unconnected inputs at Spare Gates.

As written in the HCT specification:
Connecting Unused Inputs
Unused inputs should be tied to VCC or ground to prevent the input from floating. If left to float, the power consumption of
the device increases because the input may be at an invalid logic level (between VIH and VIL), causing ICC.

I will order the rest of the AHCT and HCT chips, connect the free inputs and perform a second stability attempt Smile.

I have no experience if this can not be a problem with the LS and F series.

Have a nice day
Jan
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9680 is a reply to message #9679] Wed, 26 January 2022 03:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi Jan
The 74LS (and 74F, I think) contain internal pull ups on inputs so even if left unconnected they appear to be high. I don't think 74HC or 74HCT include pull ups but even without them they can be left disconnected. I used to ground or pull high unused inputs but that makes debugging a real pain so now I just leave them unconnected. With 74LS and 74F that's not an issue and usually isn't with 74HCT either.

I don't use 74HC because the logic levels are different and require interfacing to work properly. Normally I prefer 74LS, 74F, 74ACT, 74ALS, and 74HCT and usually can be substituted but not in all cases. 74HC is different though and if you want to used it you'll have to use it exclusively throughout the design to accommodate the different logic levels. I've not tested 74HC so don't know if it will work at all so I recommend some caution before using it. If there are open gate inputs you can always try a jumper to ground on the copper side of the board.

Good luck! Thanks, Andrew Lynch

[Updated on: Mon, 14 February 2022 04:26]

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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9761 is a reply to message #9680] Mon, 14 February 2022 04:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi
Finally making some progress on the Z80 CTCDART V2 and Z80 DUALPIO V2. I built both boards this weekend and they seem to work fine except there is an issue with the IO ports. Each board is supposed to only use 8 IO addresses but something appears to be using 16 IO ports. If the boards are directly adjacent in the IO map ($B0-$B7 and $B8-$BF) they interfere with each other. I think I've identified the root cause and notional fix but haven't tested it yet.

The boards work fine but are going to need either a patch or a work around procedure. Probably need a PCB respin in the long term but not for a while. They work well enough to use and test and I'd like to get some exercise on these boards to see if there are any other problems to be fixed in the respin. These are not show stoppers like the V1 boards had.

So if you want to build these boards go ahead and get them from the nhyodyne repo. I'll post patch instructions as soon as I test them and confirm they work properly. It will be the same procedure for both Z80 CTCDART V2 and Z80 DUALPIO V2. BTW, I am using an SIO/0 in my CTCDART board so you can use either a DART or one of the variants of SIO/? chips

Please let me know if you have any questions, Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9762 is a reply to message #9761] Mon, 14 February 2022 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vackon is currently offline  vackon
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Junior Member
Hi,
I'm looking at the schematic and I have a quick question. Are you solving pin differences between DART, SIO / X or not?
I don't see a jumper for SIO type selection anywhere.
Thank you
Jan
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9763 is a reply to message #9762] Tue, 15 February 2022 03:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi Jan
The DART and SIO/0 are similar and no jumpers are needed for compatibility. The ECB Zilog Peripherals board has a table of DART & SIO compatibility which also applies to the Z80 CTCDART V2

https://retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:ecb:zilog- peripherals:start#z80-dart_sio

All the SIOs will work but have varying degrees of compatibility. The SIO/9 seems to be the least compatible (one channel only) but they are fairly unusual I think.

The serial ports use only a subset of the pins available which helps compatibility quite a bit by focusing on those common to all the DART and SIO variants.

I hope this helps! Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9768 is a reply to message #9763] Mon, 21 February 2022 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi
After a lengthy delay due to problems with the Z80 CTCDART and Z80 DUALPIO it seems those have been solved so it is time to move on to the next pair of boards. They will be the Z80 PRINT and the Z80 PSG

Z80 PRINT

https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=568&goto=9514&#msg_9514

Z80 PSG

https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=568&goto=9460&#msg_9460

The Z80 PRINT adds fully capable bi-directional, buffered, Centronics parallel port. It can be used for old style printers like dot matrix or early ink jets or for parallel peripherals. Has full set of handshaking signals and interrupt capability for data transfers.

The Z80 PSG is a familiar design from the original ECB SCG board and N8. A three channel FM synthesis sound generator with two joystick ports which can be configured for MSX or Atari compatibility. Intended to be MSX compliant to complement future boards which add V9938/V9938 VDP for a greater degree of MSX compatibility.

Thanks, Andrew Lynch

PS, does anyone know how to prevent the forum editor from corrupting RBC forum URLs? I can never seem to post a URL to a specific message on RBC forum without it getting mangled


[Updated on: Mon, 21 February 2022 11:46]

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Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9783 is a reply to message #9768] Fri, 25 February 2022 03:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi
More testing on Z80 CTCDART V2 and found another glitch but there is an easy fix. The DCDB pin needs to be grounded for the serial port channel B to receive data. Just add a short jumper between DCDB U9, pin 22 (DART or SIO) and Ground U9, pin 31 on the copper side of the PCB.

Serial port channel B transmits data just fine but due to a peculiar initialization of the DART or SIO pins DCDB has to be grounded for it to receive data. This change will be added to the upcoming PCB respin for Z80 CTCDART V3 when it comes out.

If you have any questions or comments please reply to this thread

Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9785 is a reply to message #9783] Fri, 25 February 2022 08:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi
I am steadily moving Z80 Modular Backplane Computer info over to the nhyodyne github site.

Log on here https://github.com/lynchaj/nhyodyne and "watch" the repo for email notifications (button in upper right hand corner).

I just updated the Z80 PRINT and Z80 PSG folders on the nhyodyne repo and ordered PCBs. They should be here in mid to late Mar 2022.

Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9832 is a reply to message #9785] Tue, 22 March 2022 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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Hi

An update on Z80 MBC recent developments. The two latest boards have arrived and been distributed (Z80 PRINT V1 and Z80 PSG V1). They've both been built and at least one person has gotten the Z80 PSG V1 to work making sound and playing tunes with RomWBW. Testing is not done yet.

I've built both boards and completed the Z80 PRINT V1 although the Z80 PSG V1 is still waiting for some 74LS174 chips to arrive. I think the Z80 PSG V1 has better software support at the moment since it is close to the ECB SCG board audio section.

The Z80 PRINT V1 probably will take some more work as the team catches up on the build and test. This parallel port is based on the IBM PC implementation and is bi-directional with the full suite of control & status signals. Parallel printers aren't all that common anymore so it may take some time building up support for them.

If you'd like to build your own Z80 MBC you can order your own PCBs from JLCPCB using the Gerbers on the Github repo

https://github.com/lynchaj/nhyodyne

Probably the next two PCBs for Z80 PBC are going to be the two Z80 VDP variants based on the V9938/V9958 Yamaha video display processors but we need some time to digest current projects before starting on them.
Re: Z80 Multi Board Computer [message #9891 is a reply to message #9461] Mon, 02 May 2022 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
lynchaj is currently offline  lynchaj
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lynchaj wrote on Wed, 08 December 2021 07:43
Z80 VDP1A

/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=2532&private=0

Hi
This is first iteration of upcoming Z80 VDP1A board. It is based on the V9938 section of the S-100 MSX VDP board updated to support V9958. It is designed for output compatible with GBS-8200 video converter boards. Since there are multiple ways to design V9938/V9958 video output stages the plan is to design two boards and downselect depending on which one does best. This design uses multiple discrete components to fashion a video output stage similar to how implemented on S-100 MSX VDP (demonstrated working design).

Please review and comment on design. I am especially interested in usability concerns as these boards are highly complicated and usability can suffer with all the many options available.

Thanks, Andrew Lynch
Hi
I finally ordered PCBs for Z80 VDP1A and Z80 VDP1B. This weekend I built the Z80 VDP1A as far as I could go. Still missing the 21 MHz crystal and the FMS6141 and LM1881 ICs. It seems to have gone together fairly well although it did take quite a bit of time to get organized beforehand. There are a lot of parts and some unusual values so it takes more effort than most Z80 MBC boards. Next weekend I'll do the same for the Z80 VDP1B although I know I am missing parts for it as well. Then it is just a matter of waiting for the parts to arrive to finish them up and starting testing.

As usual, all the information is stored on the nhyodyne Github repo

Thanks, Andrew Lynch

[Updated on: Mon, 02 May 2022 11:07]

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