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SMT vs. through-hole [message #7375] Tue, 31 March 2020 00:51 Go to next message
gbm is currently offline  gbm
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Starting the philosophic thread...

I graduated back in 1980s, in the era of through-hole components. I designed many devices with ICs in DIP cases. Some 25 years ago I hesitatingly tried to put some 0805 resistors in one of my designs to save some space in a critical region of a PCB. I immediately liked the space occupancy reduction, but even more than that I was happy with the lack of burden of inserting the pins into holes and cutting the wires. As a result, I switched to SMT. Most of my designs are produced in small quantities - 10..100 pcs., and soldered by hand, many of them personally by me. My eyes are not as good as they used to be, but I would never switch back to through hole - SMT assembly by hand is much faster - just place the component, hold it with tweezers and touch it with a soldering iron. No problems either with 0.5 mm pin spacing - just use the proper flux and soldering tin magically sticks precisely where it should. Flux gel is the key factor with SMT, not precision. It took me like two years to realize this and switch to SMT completely. Today I use mainly 0603 components, and sometimes even 0402.
Ok, that's just my experience, and I am not the kind of a man with very precise hands. When it comes to any mechanical work, "my both hands are left ones" as we say it in my native language.

Now, I see many designs of various microprocessor- and microcontroller-based devices using old, big, spacious and slow-to-assemble through-hole resistors and capacitors. Most of the stuff shown here at RetroBrew and many other amateur sites is THT.

So, let's start the off-topic discussion, just right for coronavirus-induced self-isolation: Why do the people avoid cute SMT components and stick to THT? ;)

[Updated on: Tue, 31 March 2020 00:54]

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Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7376 is a reply to message #7375] Tue, 31 March 2020 05:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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gbm,
I am in your camp. I like SMT and design with SMT. However, I've came around to design with more THT because retrocomputing as a social experience is for older folks who lived through computer revolution and want to re-live that experience but are not necessarily experienced in hardware design and assembly. Even in the 70's and 80's, there were 5 software engineers to every hardware engineer, so most people of that generation are good with software but not so much with hardware design/assembly/debugging. THT is easier to disassemble and debug; and each part has distinct functionality. With a THT retrocomputer you can point at various components and describe its functionality. I think that is why people are moving away from highly integrated microcontrollers which is very cheap to THT retrocomputers which are actually quite expensive but more satisfying to the computing experience.
Bill

[Updated on: Tue, 31 March 2020 05:28]

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Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7377 is a reply to message #7375] Tue, 31 March 2020 05:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
just4fun is currently offline  just4fun
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I can only agree with you...
I do only manual SMT assembly, with a decent iron or air gun (I mean no pick&place machine or reflow oven) and using cheap "chinese" flux and paste, and I'm completely happy with those.
Of course a decent optical stereo microscope is my "best tool" here!
I must admit that some learning curve is required to start, and some tools too, so I can understand that "casual assemblers" prefer THT.
I currently do THT boards only because most people are scared of SMT (or when I have only THT parts, and to do a "mixed" board can lead to an "ugly board").

Fabio
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7378 is a reply to message #7377] Tue, 31 March 2020 06:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jcoffman is currently offline  jcoffman
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SMT may be fine for components which will not be changed. However, for changeable components, like ROMs and GALs, socketed THT devices are a must. Also, for expensive components, I'll take sockets over SMT any day. I think those new to the hobby of Retro Computing, THT is much less intimidating. A dense PLCC package, often surface mounted, is usable in a socket with pins on 0.1" centers, same as a DIP. Sockets are an advantage for making circuit changes on hobby boards fairly easy, since pins can be disconnected by bending them up; then I wire-wrap the circuit change to the exposed pin. SMT is fine for final designs, but not for us hackers.

I can't argue with the space-saving aspects of surface mount. BTW: is it SMT, or SMD?


--John
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7389 is a reply to message #7378] Wed, 01 April 2020 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tingo is currently offline  tingo
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I enjoy both THT and SMT projects, both has their charms and their moments which make me want to use bad words.

Torfinn
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7391 is a reply to message #7389] Wed, 01 April 2020 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bifo is currently offline  bifo
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I haven't got the courage to try SMT yet, I don't like to try to melt solder onto the iron and then use flux to transfer it. Much easier to heat the socket pin and melt the solder from one hand with the iron in the other on a board held in place. I picked up an inexpensive heat gun at Harbor Freight a few weeks ago though during a big sale, with the expectation that I'd eventually get to doing it.

Of course, I can't do that on my wooden kitchen table with a heat-resistant silicone mat in my apartment. The instruction manual for the heat gun seems to expect people to use it to strip paint off walls. I'll probably use it to heat-shrink a cable or two first. In the back yard, suspended from something, with nothing flammable within at least ten feet behind the cable.

Besides which, THT is useful because it allows use of older components and older designs. I'm finishing up a Harlequin Spectrum clone (finished the N8 but need to diagnose some things with a logic probe and ugh) and I'm taking my time with my Omega since I picked up an old MSX2 last year, so my next projects are going to be building audio circuits out of old issues of Electronics & Music Maker magazine. It does bring me to wonder, though, is there any equivalent to copper etching for SMT? THT seems far friendlier to homebrewing circuits with breadboards and so on.

[Updated on: Wed, 01 April 2020 23:21]

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Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7392 is a reply to message #7391] Wed, 01 April 2020 23:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikemac is currently offline  mikemac
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I haven't heard anyone mention aesthetics. THT looks more period correct to me. Whether that's actually true is a different question.

One thing I like about THT is it's easier for me to hold a probe on a TH pin than 0603 pad.

I have to admit I've been too chicken to try much SMT soldering. And too cheap to risk the parts. I was going to try reflow using a toaster oven but my wife stole it back. I'll probably try solder paste with a stencil and hot air gun [one meant for IC work, not stripping paint!] next week on my little 68SEC000 board. I'll need to get over my hesitation as my next design will be almost all SMT except the PGA for the processor and all of the connectors.



Mike

[Updated on: Wed, 01 April 2020 23:35]

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Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7393 is a reply to message #7376] Thu, 02 April 2020 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kman is currently offline  kman
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I agree. SMD is the first choice for small modules like the ESP8266 WiFi module or others. For hand soldering and debugging THT is much better and easier to handle. My biggest horror is to have a expensive large system completly build with SMD parts that is broken by electric discharge for example (my ZX-UNO VGA 2M has a short circuit situation, all SMD - how to find the defective part and repair ?Wink. SMD parts are very sensetive against tin oxidation, they have to be stored encapsulated to prevent this. THT parts are much easy to handle regarding this. Generally I'm too old to work with these small parts... I'm anyway allways searching for my glasses Smile
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7397 is a reply to message #7393] Thu, 02 April 2020 06:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bifo is currently offline  bifo
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muellerk wrote on Thu, 02 April 2020 00:12
I agree. SMD is the first choice for small modules like the ESP8266 WiFi module or others. For hand soldering and debugging THT is much better and easier to handle. My biggest horror is to have a expensive large system completly build with SMD parts that is broken by electric discharge for example (my ZX-UNO VGA 2M has a short circuit situation, all SMD - how to find the defective part and repair ?Wink. SMD parts are very sensetive against tin oxidation, they have to be stored encapsulated to prevent this. THT parts are much easy to handle regarding this. Generally I'm too old to work with these small parts... I'm anyway allways searching for my glasses Smile
I'm in my 30s and am literally the only person in my family who doesn't yet need glasses, and I don't think I have steady enough hands to try to mount SIP chips on a board by hand. The very idea that anyone is trying to mount SMD components by hand instead of essentially somehow gluing them with solder paste to a spot and then baking them perfectly, somehow both melting the solder and not frying the components inside the chips, is incredible to me.

I mean, I can bake a loaf of bread from scratch, but that's not hard. Trying to use an oven to solder connections without f-ing everything entirely would either be utter magic or like trying to run a dwarven forge in my apartment, with the oven door open.

[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2020 06:22]

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Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7398 is a reply to message #7397] Thu, 02 April 2020 06:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bifo is currently offline  bifo
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I think the overall point of this thread is to convince people like me to have some confidence in our ability to use SMD components and that will require teaching us how we can do such things without screwing it up. I'd wager every person afraid of dealing with SMD has tried to dive in to building an SMD kit without having any real instruction or guidance and botched it entirely, and gave up because it was so different.
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7400 is a reply to message #7398] Thu, 02 April 2020 06:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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I'm retired old guy with extensive surgeries on both eyes (detached retina), so if I can hand solder 0.5mm pitch SMT, anyone can. The magic recipe for me is this:
1. Stereo inspection microscope (My vision is so bad, I can not solder THT without stereo inspection microscope)
2. liquid solder flux
3. fine tip solder gun
4. smallest diameter lead/tin solder you can find
5. practice!

Bill
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7401 is a reply to message #7400] Thu, 02 April 2020 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bifo is currently offline  bifo
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Solder gun as in one which might feed the solder to the hot tip? I was looking at buying one of those last year but never got around to it, I hadn't soldered anything in a long time so I felt I needed practice.

Also, a stereo inspection microscope raises the question: i have a set of cheap jewelers spectacles for magnification (and a magnifying glass and a loupe, and the loupe has been the most useful overal and cost about $3 on ebay), should I expect to breathe in the smoke of melting solder in my nose every time I work on projects and breathe in?

TBH lead solder would explain a lot about how older engineers handle things. No offense meant of course to anyone who reads this, clearly you still have your sanity. you just have a hobby.
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7403 is a reply to message #7401] Thu, 02 April 2020 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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I have a Metcal soldering station; it is a regular solder station with interchangeable tips. For SMT I use STTC026 tip which is 0.4mm diameter.

Inspection microscope has long working distance so you are not too close to the fume which is vaporized rosin. A small fan help, but for occasional work I don't see the point. Lead/tin solder is in continue use in USA. Because of potential tin whisker formation over long period of time, high reliability electronic still require tin/lead solder and are generally hand soldered because of small production run. The assembly persons are almost always old ladies with 20-30 years of experience handling lead/tin solder everyday. I know that because I worked with high reliability assembly for many years. I also know if there are any health issues with handling lead/tin, these old ladies will make a fuss and they haven't.
Bill
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7405 is a reply to message #7403] Thu, 02 April 2020 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bifo is currently offline  bifo
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plasmo wrote on Thu, 02 April 2020 09:09
I have a Metcal soldering station; it is a regular solder station with interchangeable tips. For SMT I use STTC026 tip which is 0.4mm diameter.

Inspection microscope has long working distance so you are not too close to the fume which is vaporized rosin. A small fan help, but for occasional work I don't see the point. Lead/tin solder is in continue use in USA. Because of potential tin whisker formation over long period of time, high reliability electronic still require tin/lead solder and are generally hand soldered because of small production run. The assembly persons are almost always old ladies with 20-30 years of experience handling lead/tin solder everyday. I know that because I worked with high reliability assembly for many years. I also know if there are any health issues with handling lead/tin, these old ladies will make a fuss and they haven't.
Bill
Are these old ladies interested in working on projects while in quarantine? because they sound like the seamstresses that would sew a dress for a star for the oscar red carpet, except expert in what we are looking for, and perhaps we can provide them with work, pay, and a way to help us and a way to help them pay for food?

I'm not sure where you're from, bill, but wherever it is I'd be happy to put in an order. If you have extra boards available, i can't imagine what you'd get if you sold them for charity to the local old ladies.

There is not a man alive who wouldn't want those old ladies building their computer (or synthesizer, or drum machine, or whatever) for them.
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7406 is a reply to message #7405] Thu, 02 April 2020 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
plasmo is currently offline  plasmo
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Yes, those old ladies were really really good. I've retired for 7 years and haven't done production engineering for 10 years prior so I've lost touch with them. I imagine they are all retired now. We hobbyists can't afford them anyway, they were well paid.

I'm located at New Mexico, USA. If you have SMT parts once in a while that need to be soldered, I'm happy to do it for free.
Bill
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7407 is a reply to message #7406] Thu, 02 April 2020 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bifo is currently offline  bifo
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Haha, I wish, I'm in VA. With luck it'll be a slow viral infection rate out where you are, won't overwhelm the hospitals, and if you're already retired, plenty of time to spend on projects and go hiking on the trails.

Here, I'm just hoping that the next work from home contract starts in May as I expect it to. I don't want to try to dip circuits in acid to get the unreliable copper maps that the old magazines provided (Maplin, for the one I'm aiming for as my next project), so I will need to learn kicad.

and electronics.

i'm just a signals guy really.

[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2020 19:10]

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Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7421 is a reply to message #7407] Fri, 03 April 2020 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tingo is currently offline  tingo
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Location: Oslo, Norway
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If you have a makerspace local to you check them out to see if they provide courses or workshops for learning SMT soldering (or anything else that their members are interested in).

Torfinn
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7480 is a reply to message #7421] Thu, 09 April 2020 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dfnr2 is currently offline  dfnr2
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I am also in the SMT camp for professional and personal work. I also prefer the ARM architecture because of the tooling, and Altium Designer for PCB design. But for relatively simple projects that I think might be useful to other hobbyists (especially retrocomputing hobbyists) I try to at least start out with through-hole, Atmega (because of the Arduino crowd), and KiCad. That helps ensure that a project is accessible to the widest swath of hobbyists. Where I draw the line is tying a project to a specific IDE like arduino or Atmel Studio, or a popular OS like Windows.
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7502 is a reply to message #7480] Sun, 12 April 2020 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scruss is currently offline  scruss
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I am quite capable of making a mess of any form of soldering, PTH or SMT. I only use lead-free at home, which keeps things interesting.

A tiny, cheap and confidence-building SMT project is Volker Forster's "5 Stars For The Customer" LED keychain gadget. I think he includes one in every order over $50 or so. It's not the smallest surface mount components: the voltage regulator's SOT23-3. I built mine with just my regular PTH kit plus tweezers and about 10 minutes of highly creative swearing looking for a dropped component.


> Does anyone know what each of the pins on the 6502 CPU chip in the Apple II Plus does?
They all plug into the socket on the motherboard to keep the chip from drifting away. - c.s.a2 FAQ of yore
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7533 is a reply to message #7502] Wed, 15 April 2020 07:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
etchedpixels is currently offline  etchedpixels
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The problem I have is seeing them. I can solder large SMT objects or SOT23 but the dandruff that claims to be capacitors and resistors is just beyond my eyesight even with a magnifier.
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7624 is a reply to message #7533] Sun, 10 May 2020 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
djmartins is currently offline  djmartins
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etchedpixels wrote on Wed, 15 April 2020 10:40
the dandruff that claims to be capacitors and resistors is just beyond my eyesight even with a magnifier.
I use the 10x loupe from this set:
https://www.harborfreight.com/5-piece-loupe-set-98722.html
If you haven't tried one it is only $3.75 and I have several sets with the things laying all over the house and shop.
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7627 is a reply to message #7624] Mon, 11 May 2020 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jdgabbard is currently offline  jdgabbard
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Personally, I really like SMD components. While not always practical, they significantly help to reduce board size. That said, there are definitely some packages I try to stay away from. For example the obvious BGA package. Also, I HATE millipede packages, they always give me problems. But I've had good enough luck with most others. All that said, sometimes you just have to use a through hole package, as no SMD package exists. And in those cases, it's not too difficult to do a hybrid design. Items like ROM and PLDs can be had in PLCC packages. Which, when coupled with sockets, can be easy enough to pull and reprogram. I actually have a few thousand 22V10s, and 16V8s in PLCC. So this is an easy task for me. Once I have a known working design, I might switch over to a SMD footprint for them to be soldered in place. But whether I do or not is more dependent on whether I'm creating a one off or a design meant for higher volume.

But, I find that the advantage for going through hole for most designs has more to do with it's target audience than my personal preference. On my minimal z80 computer I designed and sell on my website I have received quite a bit of negative feedback from some builders for the fact that I used SMD caps and resistors. The argument was that these are too difficult for hobbyist to solder. It hasn't seemed to have had a huge impact, as I have sold close to 1000 boards over the last few years. But it is something I noted, and have decided to redesign the board for all through hole parts. I'm just waiting to run out of stock at this point before offering a newer version of the board. So this issue definitely does have some sway with new guys to the hobby. And I feel that if a design is mostly SMD you'll have a hard time getting a lot of people to give it a try. But having a few components onboard, such as SOP-14/16 and other decently spaced packages, probably won't be a make or break design for the average hobbyist. Just my .02....


Doug Gabbard
Creator of the G80-S Micro Computer and 'Porter' of TinyBASIC 2.5g
Website: http://retrodepot.net
z80 TinyBASIC 2.5g: http://retrodepot.net/?p=424
AtariAge Username: jdgabbard
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7726 is a reply to message #7627] Thu, 28 May 2020 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
quarterturn is currently offline  quarterturn
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I love surface mount. I'm a total convert from through-hole. It is so much easier to rework and fix things vs through-hole. I guess a downside is you can't wirewrap/breadboard, but with stuff like Kicad and cheap board houses with quick turnaround, it's just as well to prototype by just designing it sending it out to get made, then bodging it until it works or you find it can't be bodged and do another revision.

I use a combo of 3x reading glasses and a surplus Wolfvision VZ-9light4 visualizer camera thing hooked up via HDMI to a computer monitor. It has enough magnification to let me easily do QFP fine-pitch stuff, and it allows for a relaxed, non-hunched working position. I obtained it from a local univerisity surplus for $40. Yes, if you buy it new it's expensive, so if you can't find one used get one of those USB3 microscope cams found on ebay which seem to go for about $300 for a complete setup.

My trick to placing parts is to use two hands - dominant hand holds the tweezers and non-dominant braces the other hand. It reduces tremors to a minimum.
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7729 is a reply to message #7726] Thu, 28 May 2020 23:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
trianon is currently offline  trianon
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I love the retro look of the THT parts, back to the 90s, but I find it's getting impossible to find some parts in THT today.
For that reason, (only) my first board will be THT, with all old part I have laying around, before THT gets out of date...

But SMD (SMT) has some big advantages, space (parts are smaller, but you can also use the other size of the PCB for components).
The signal path is shorter, less noise, higher speeds possible. some parts are only in SMD available, like SD cards, new chips...
You can really make some neat looking boards with SMD.

Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7731 is a reply to message #7729] Fri, 29 May 2020 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
djmartins is currently offline  djmartins
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I'm bi!
Through hole is simple and easy but SMD is easily done too.
I use blu tack to hold one end of the part and solder the other end or pin then take the tack off and solder the rest.
I use a 10X eye loupe for soldering either style parts as my age is getting to my eyesight.
I'll clean a board and then rub some solder flux on it and use a tip some might think is too big but it works well.
SMD is needed for many parts and designs now and once you jump in you'll find they aren't as hard as you imagine to solder.
Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #8167 is a reply to message #7731] Fri, 01 January 2021 13:01 Go to previous message
Garth is currently offline  Garth
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Good points have been made above. I would add a few comments:
  • THT can indeed be made very dense, particularly in analog circuits where you use a lot of resistors and diodes that can be staggered in up to five rows underneath the DIPs (so they take no board space at all!). I used to do this for designs at work all the time. We were very late in going to SMT, because we had our own assembly and soldering machines so we didn't have to farm it out, and the set-up costs for automated SMT assembly were still quite high for the small quantities we produced. The difficulty in troubleshooting and repairing a board with parts under parts actually made the production people so careful that we had almost no errors. I got across-the-board densities up to 45 parts per square inch this way. I realize this is not practical for hobbyists though.

  • You can indeed put parts on both sides (more likely in digital circuits, not analog which has a lot of discrete components) if you stagger the rows of pins. It works best with open-frame sockets (or strips) so you can solder a socket in place and still have access to solder an IC or socket that comes in from the other side of the board, before covering those pins with the IC that goes in the socket. Another way is to solder the pins from the top, although you might not be able to put the ICs quite as close together and still get enough access. The soldering iron only needs to touch the top of the pin, near the body of the IC; but you still need to get the solder down near the board.

  • A minor problem with getting density with parts on both sides with thru-hole is that every hole takes space on every layer of the board, not only complicating the possibility of parts on both sides, but also making routing of signals more difficult on internal layers. (Offsetting that slightly is the problem of putting vias in pads in SMT.) So another possibility is to either J-lead or I-butt thru-hole parts, and solder them like SMT, onto pads on the board, with no holes. J-leading is best done with a special tool (which I don't have). I-butting is where you cut the lead in the narrow part, a very short distance below the wide part, and then have the solder fillet fill in the overhang space.

  • For work, I prefer designing with SMT, for reasons of density and AC behavior. I can solder SMT by hand, but it really is a problem when we're getting a new product going and we have to troubleshoot problems and show the assembly house or board manufacturer what they did wrong. We do have SMT rework equipment, but it's just so much easier in thru-hole. SMT and automated assembly works great once the bugs are ironed out and the product is launched. The problems we have are on very few boards of a batch, meaning it's not the design; so sometimes I'm tempted to just tell the manager it's not worth my time to try to troubleshoot the thing, and he should just accept the loss of a small percentage of boards that don't pass the testing. The recent problems I can think of were that they cracked an 0402 resistor (the crack being visible only with a microscope), knocked another one off apparently because the solder was already cracked (a problem which does not happen with leaded solder!), and had a crack in a trace near a pad, and had one connection open at the side of a tiny module because they did not use enough solder and flux.

  • For things like connectors where there's stress on the pins when something is plugged in or unplugged, I greatly prefer the strength you get with thru-hole and plated-thru holes, where it's like the pin is riveted in. I've seen too many times where SMT connectors peeled the foils away from the board when stressed.


http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
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