Home » RBC Forums » General Discussion » SMT vs. through-hole
| SMT vs. through-hole [message #7375] |
Tue, 31 March 2020 00:51  |
gbm
Messages: 34 Registered: January 2018
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Starting the philosophic thread...
I graduated back in 1980s, in the era of through-hole components. I designed many devices with ICs in DIP cases. Some 25 years ago I hesitatingly tried to put some 0805 resistors in one of my designs to save some space in a critical region of a PCB. I immediately liked the space occupancy reduction, but even more than that I was happy with the lack of burden of inserting the pins into holes and cutting the wires. As a result, I switched to SMT. Most of my designs are produced in small quantities - 10..100 pcs., and soldered by hand, many of them personally by me. My eyes are not as good as they used to be, but I would never switch back to through hole - SMT assembly by hand is much faster - just place the component, hold it with tweezers and touch it with a soldering iron. No problems either with 0.5 mm pin spacing - just use the proper flux and soldering tin magically sticks precisely where it should. Flux gel is the key factor with SMT, not precision. It took me like two years to realize this and switch to SMT completely. Today I use mainly 0603 components, and sometimes even 0402.
Ok, that's just my experience, and I am not the kind of a man with very precise hands. When it comes to any mechanical work, "my both hands are left ones" as we say it in my native language.
Now, I see many designs of various microprocessor- and microcontroller-based devices using old, big, spacious and slow-to-assemble through-hole resistors and capacitors. Most of the stuff shown here at RetroBrew and many other amateur sites is THT.
So, let's start the off-topic discussion, just right for coronavirus-induced self-isolation: Why do the people avoid cute SMT components and stick to THT? ;)
[Updated on: Tue, 31 March 2020 00:54] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7376 is a reply to message #7375] |
Tue, 31 March 2020 05:24   |
plasmo
Messages: 916 Registered: March 2017 Location: New Mexico, USA
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gbm,
I am in your camp. I like SMT and design with SMT. However, I've came around to design with more THT because retrocomputing as a social experience is for older folks who lived through computer revolution and want to re-live that experience but are not necessarily experienced in hardware design and assembly. Even in the 70's and 80's, there were 5 software engineers to every hardware engineer, so most people of that generation are good with software but not so much with hardware design/assembly/debugging. THT is easier to disassemble and debug; and each part has distinct functionality. With a THT retrocomputer you can point at various components and describe its functionality. I think that is why people are moving away from highly integrated microcontrollers which is very cheap to THT retrocomputers which are actually quite expensive but more satisfying to the computing experience.
Bill
[Updated on: Tue, 31 March 2020 05:28] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7378 is a reply to message #7377] |
Tue, 31 March 2020 06:15   |
jcoffman
Messages: 332 Registered: October 2015
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SMT may be fine for components which will not be changed. However, for changeable components, like ROMs and GALs, socketed THT devices are a must. Also, for expensive components, I'll take sockets over SMT any day. I think those new to the hobby of Retro Computing, THT is much less intimidating. A dense PLCC package, often surface mounted, is usable in a socket with pins on 0.1" centers, same as a DIP. Sockets are an advantage for making circuit changes on hobby boards fairly easy, since pins can be disconnected by bending them up; then I wire-wrap the circuit change to the exposed pin. SMT is fine for final designs, but not for us hackers.
I can't argue with the space-saving aspects of surface mount. BTW: is it SMT, or SMD?
--John
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7389 is a reply to message #7378] |
Wed, 01 April 2020 14:51   |
tingo
Messages: 115 Registered: February 2017 Location: Oslo, Norway
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I enjoy both THT and SMT projects, both has their charms and their moments which make me want to use bad words.
Torfinn
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7391 is a reply to message #7389] |
Wed, 01 April 2020 23:20   |
bifo
Messages: 48 Registered: October 2019
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I haven't got the courage to try SMT yet, I don't like to try to melt solder onto the iron and then use flux to transfer it. Much easier to heat the socket pin and melt the solder from one hand with the iron in the other on a board held in place. I picked up an inexpensive heat gun at Harbor Freight a few weeks ago though during a big sale, with the expectation that I'd eventually get to doing it.
Of course, I can't do that on my wooden kitchen table with a heat-resistant silicone mat in my apartment. The instruction manual for the heat gun seems to expect people to use it to strip paint off walls. I'll probably use it to heat-shrink a cable or two first. In the back yard, suspended from something, with nothing flammable within at least ten feet behind the cable.
Besides which, THT is useful because it allows use of older components and older designs. I'm finishing up a Harlequin Spectrum clone (finished the N8 but need to diagnose some things with a logic probe and ugh) and I'm taking my time with my Omega since I picked up an old MSX2 last year, so my next projects are going to be building audio circuits out of old issues of Electronics & Music Maker magazine. It does bring me to wonder, though, is there any equivalent to copper etching for SMT? THT seems far friendlier to homebrewing circuits with breadboards and so on.
[Updated on: Wed, 01 April 2020 23:21] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7392 is a reply to message #7391] |
Wed, 01 April 2020 23:34   |
mikemac
Messages: 250 Registered: March 2017
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I haven't heard anyone mention aesthetics. THT looks more period correct to me. Whether that's actually true is a different question.
One thing I like about THT is it's easier for me to hold a probe on a TH pin than 0603 pad.
I have to admit I've been too chicken to try much SMT soldering. And too cheap to risk the parts. I was going to try reflow using a toaster oven but my wife stole it back. I'll probably try solder paste with a stencil and hot air gun [one meant for IC work, not stripping paint!] next week on my little 68SEC000 board. I'll need to get over my hesitation as my next design will be almost all SMT except the PGA for the processor and all of the connectors.
Mike
[Updated on: Wed, 01 April 2020 23:35] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7397 is a reply to message #7393] |
Thu, 02 April 2020 06:21   |
bifo
Messages: 48 Registered: October 2019
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muellerk wrote on Thu, 02 April 2020 00:12I agree. SMD is the first choice for small modules like the ESP8266 WiFi module or others. For hand soldering and debugging THT is much better and easier to handle. My biggest horror is to have a expensive large system completly build with SMD parts that is broken by electric discharge for example (my ZX-UNO VGA 2M has a short circuit situation, all SMD - how to find the defective part and repair ? . SMD parts are very sensetive against tin oxidation, they have to be stored encapsulated to prevent this. THT parts are much easy to handle regarding this. Generally I'm too old to work with these small parts... I'm anyway allways searching for my glasses
I'm in my 30s and am literally the only person in my family who doesn't yet need glasses, and I don't think I have steady enough hands to try to mount SIP chips on a board by hand. The very idea that anyone is trying to mount SMD components by hand instead of essentially somehow gluing them with solder paste to a spot and then baking them perfectly, somehow both melting the solder and not frying the components inside the chips, is incredible to me.
I mean, I can bake a loaf of bread from scratch, but that's not hard. Trying to use an oven to solder connections without f-ing everything entirely would either be utter magic or like trying to run a dwarven forge in my apartment, with the oven door open.
[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2020 06:22] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7405 is a reply to message #7403] |
Thu, 02 April 2020 11:15   |
bifo
Messages: 48 Registered: October 2019
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plasmo wrote on Thu, 02 April 2020 09:09I have a Metcal soldering station; it is a regular solder station with interchangeable tips. For SMT I use STTC026 tip which is 0.4mm diameter.
Inspection microscope has long working distance so you are not too close to the fume which is vaporized rosin. A small fan help, but for occasional work I don't see the point. Lead/tin solder is in continue use in USA. Because of potential tin whisker formation over long period of time, high reliability electronic still require tin/lead solder and are generally hand soldered because of small production run. The assembly persons are almost always old ladies with 20-30 years of experience handling lead/tin solder everyday. I know that because I worked with high reliability assembly for many years. I also know if there are any health issues with handling lead/tin, these old ladies will make a fuss and they haven't.
Bill
Are these old ladies interested in working on projects while in quarantine? because they sound like the seamstresses that would sew a dress for a star for the oscar red carpet, except expert in what we are looking for, and perhaps we can provide them with work, pay, and a way to help us and a way to help them pay for food?
I'm not sure where you're from, bill, but wherever it is I'd be happy to put in an order. If you have extra boards available, i can't imagine what you'd get if you sold them for charity to the local old ladies.
There is not a man alive who wouldn't want those old ladies building their computer (or synthesizer, or drum machine, or whatever) for them.
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7407 is a reply to message #7406] |
Thu, 02 April 2020 19:09   |
bifo
Messages: 48 Registered: October 2019
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Haha, I wish, I'm in VA. With luck it'll be a slow viral infection rate out where you are, won't overwhelm the hospitals, and if you're already retired, plenty of time to spend on projects and go hiking on the trails.
Here, I'm just hoping that the next work from home contract starts in May as I expect it to. I don't want to try to dip circuits in acid to get the unreliable copper maps that the old magazines provided (Maplin, for the one I'm aiming for as my next project), so I will need to learn kicad.
and electronics.
i'm just a signals guy really.
[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2020 19:10] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7421 is a reply to message #7407] |
Fri, 03 April 2020 16:48   |
tingo
Messages: 115 Registered: February 2017 Location: Oslo, Norway
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If you have a makerspace local to you check them out to see if they provide courses or workshops for learning SMT soldering (or anything else that their members are interested in).
Torfinn
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7627 is a reply to message #7624] |
Mon, 11 May 2020 11:11   |
jdgabbard
Messages: 76 Registered: March 2016
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Personally, I really like SMD components. While not always practical, they significantly help to reduce board size. That said, there are definitely some packages I try to stay away from. For example the obvious BGA package. Also, I HATE millipede packages, they always give me problems. But I've had good enough luck with most others. All that said, sometimes you just have to use a through hole package, as no SMD package exists. And in those cases, it's not too difficult to do a hybrid design. Items like ROM and PLDs can be had in PLCC packages. Which, when coupled with sockets, can be easy enough to pull and reprogram. I actually have a few thousand 22V10s, and 16V8s in PLCC. So this is an easy task for me. Once I have a known working design, I might switch over to a SMD footprint for them to be soldered in place. But whether I do or not is more dependent on whether I'm creating a one off or a design meant for higher volume.
But, I find that the advantage for going through hole for most designs has more to do with it's target audience than my personal preference. On my minimal z80 computer I designed and sell on my website I have received quite a bit of negative feedback from some builders for the fact that I used SMD caps and resistors. The argument was that these are too difficult for hobbyist to solder. It hasn't seemed to have had a huge impact, as I have sold close to 1000 boards over the last few years. But it is something I noted, and have decided to redesign the board for all through hole parts. I'm just waiting to run out of stock at this point before offering a newer version of the board. So this issue definitely does have some sway with new guys to the hobby. And I feel that if a design is mostly SMD you'll have a hard time getting a lot of people to give it a try. But having a few components onboard, such as SOP-14/16 and other decently spaced packages, probably won't be a make or break design for the average hobbyist. Just my .02....
Doug Gabbard
Creator of the G80-S Micro Computer and 'Porter' of TinyBASIC 2.5g
Website: http://retrodepot.net
z80 TinyBASIC 2.5g: http://retrodepot.net/?p=424
AtariAge Username: jdgabbard
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #7729 is a reply to message #7726] |
Thu, 28 May 2020 23:40   |
trianon
Messages: 20 Registered: May 2020
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Junior Member |
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I love the retro look of the THT parts, back to the 90s, but I find it's getting impossible to find some parts in THT today.
For that reason, (only) my first board will be THT, with all old part I have laying around, before THT gets out of date...
But SMD (SMT) has some big advantages, space (parts are smaller, but you can also use the other size of the PCB for components).
The signal path is shorter, less noise, higher speeds possible. some parts are only in SMD available, like SD cards, new chips...
You can really make some neat looking boards with SMD.
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| Re: SMT vs. through-hole [message #8167 is a reply to message #7731] |
Fri, 01 January 2021 13:01  |
Garth
Messages: 29 Registered: April 2016 Location: Southern California
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Good points have been made above. I would add a few comments:
- THT can indeed be made very dense, particularly in analog circuits where you use a lot of resistors and diodes that can be staggered in up to five rows underneath the DIPs (so they take no board space at all!). I used to do this for designs at work all the time. We were very late in going to SMT, because we had our own assembly and soldering machines so we didn't have to farm it out, and the set-up costs for automated SMT assembly were still quite high for the small quantities we produced. The difficulty in troubleshooting and repairing a board with parts under parts actually made the production people so careful that we had almost no errors. I got across-the-board densities up to 45 parts per square inch this way. I realize this is not practical for hobbyists though.
- You can indeed put parts on both sides (more likely in digital circuits, not analog which has a lot of discrete components) if you stagger the rows of pins. It works best with open-frame sockets (or strips) so you can solder a socket in place and still have access to solder an IC or socket that comes in from the other side of the board, before covering those pins with the IC that goes in the socket. Another way is to solder the pins from the top, although you might not be able to put the ICs quite as close together and still get enough access. The soldering iron only needs to touch the top of the pin, near the body of the IC; but you still need to get the solder down near the board.
- A minor problem with getting density with parts on both sides with thru-hole is that every hole takes space on every layer of the board, not only complicating the possibility of parts on both sides, but also making routing of signals more difficult on internal layers. (Offsetting that slightly is the problem of putting vias in pads in SMT.) So another possibility is to either J-lead or I-butt thru-hole parts, and solder them like SMT, onto pads on the board, with no holes. J-leading is best done with a special tool (which I don't have). I-butting is where you cut the lead in the narrow part, a very short distance below the wide part, and then have the solder fillet fill in the overhang space.
- For work, I prefer designing with SMT, for reasons of density and AC behavior. I can solder SMT by hand, but it really is a problem when we're getting a new product going and we have to troubleshoot problems and show the assembly house or board manufacturer what they did wrong. We do have SMT rework equipment, but it's just so much easier in thru-hole. SMT and automated assembly works great once the bugs are ironed out and the product is launched. The problems we have are on very few boards of a batch, meaning it's not the design; so sometimes I'm tempted to just tell the manager it's not worth my time to try to troubleshoot the thing, and he should just accept the loss of a small percentage of boards that don't pass the testing. The recent problems I can think of were that they cracked an 0402 resistor (the crack being visible only with a microscope), knocked another one off apparently because the solder was already cracked (a problem which does not happen with leaded solder!), and had a crack in a trace near a pad, and had one connection open at the side of a tiny module because they did not use enough solder and flux.
- For things like connectors where there's stress on the pins when something is plugged in or unplugged, I greatly prefer the strength you get with thru-hole and plated-thru holes, where it's like the pin is riveted in. I've seen too many times where SMT connectors peeled the foils away from the board when stressed.
http://WilsonMinesCo.com/ lots of 6502 resources
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